Who is the Queen of Heaven?

[-V-]

Non sequitur. Mary wasn't artificially inseminated by the Holy Spirit.

Since no sexual act was involved, artificial insemination is the closest analogy.

She is the mother of the only heavenly king. His conception was unique in all of earth's history, so it seems a little strange to insist that the relationships must follow earthly norms.

But then you use such earthly norms ("she's the mother of the king, so she's the queen mother") to justify the title. However, as already pointed out, the "queen mother" has to have been married to a king in order to hold that title. Mary was never married to any king.

1 Kings 15:9-13, demonstrates that the Queen is the mother of the King in Hebrew culture.

False. You ignore the fact that Maacah was *ALSO* married to King Rehoboam. Being married to a king (how many times do I need to point it out??) is a REQUIREMENT to having the title "queen mother".

 

[prodromos]

The Scriptures clearly reveal what Jeremiah meant by the Queen of Heaven. in my post #56.

Exactly, he obviously was not referring to the mother of God when he used the term, just as the many times he refers to "gods", he is not referring to God.

 

[Quasar92]

1 Kings 15:9-13, demonstrates that the Queen is the mother of the King in Hebrew culture. Thus after Christ's incarnation, the King of Kings who had no mother, now has a mother. So there is from that time a true Queen of heaven whereas before then there were false pretenders, just as there were false gods.

The only two places in the Bible pertaining to the the Queem of Heaven, is in Jeremiah, as recorded in my post @56. Your above contribution is completely irrelevant.


Quasar92

 

[prodromos]

Since no sexual act was involved, artificial insemination is the closest analogy.

You may consider it to be closest, but it is still a wrong analogy.

But then you use such earthly norms ("she's the mother of the king, so she's the queen mother") to justify the title. However, as already pointed out, the "queen mother" has to have been married to a king in order to hold that title.

You don't actually know that. It is just as much an assumption as I am making.

Mary was never married to any king.

I don't think that matters. She conceived by the Holy Spirit.

False. You ignore the fact that Maacah was *ALSO* married to King Rehoboam. Being married to a king (how many times do I need to point it out??) is a REQUIREMENT to having the title "queen mother".

That is an assumption you are making, and it is a fair one, but it isn't necessarily the case.
In 1 Kings 15, it never mentions Asa's mother as being the Queen of King Abijam, his father. Nor is there any mention made of the wife of Asa as Queen, the mother of his son, Jehoshaphat.

 

[prodromos]

The only two places in the Bible pertaining to the the Queem of Heaven, is in Jeremiah, as recorded in my post @56. Your above contribution is completely irrelevant.

Your opinion is completely irrelevant to what I believe. As I already mentioned, the title "Queen of Heaven" is not used in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am simply explaining why I don't have any issue with Catholics using the title.
If I was talking about god in the context of Mount Olympus and the Greek pantheon, most people have the intelligence to understand that I am not referring to the Holy Trinity, yet when Catholics use the term "Queen of Heaven", some people check their brains at the door and insist that this is referring to the false goddess referenced in Jeremiah. It really is mind boggling.

 

[-V-]

You may consider it to be closest, but it is still a wrong analogy.

How do you know it's wrong? The Bible only says *who* got Mary pregnant. It never says *how* the Holy Spirit did it, other than it was without sex.

You don't actually know that. It is just as much an assumption as I am making.

I'm not "assuming" at all, I gave reference.

I don't think that matters. She conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The reference I gave says you're wrong, it DOES matter. Why should we just take your word for it?

That is an assumption you are making, and it is a fair one, but it isn't necessarily the case.
In 1 Kings 15, it never mentions Asa's mother as being the Queen of King Abijam, his father. Nor is there any mention made of the wife of Asa as Queen, the mother of his son, Jehoshaphat.

What "assumption"? Macaah is Asa's mother - I Kings 15:10. Macaah is King Rehoboam's wife - II Chronicles 11:20.

 

[prodromos]

What "assumption"? Macaah is Asa's mother - I Kings 15:10. Macaah is King Rehoboam's wife - II Chronicles 11:20.

Different Macaah, and Rehoboam (who is not Asa's father) had many wives. Which one was Queen?
Just to confirm,
2 Chronicles 11:20

And after her he took Maachah the daughter of Absalom; which bare him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith.​

1 Kings 15:9-10

And in the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel reigned Asa over Judah.
And forty and one years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Maachah, the daughter of Abishalom.​

Kings Asa's father was Abijam.

 

[-V-]

Different Macaah, and Rehoboam (who is not Asa's father) had many wives. Which one was Queen?
Just to confirm,
2 Chronicles 11:20

And after her he took Maachah the daughter of Absalom; which bare him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith.​

1 Kings 15:9-10

And in the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel reigned Asa over Judah.
And forty and one years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Maachah, the daughter of Abishalom.​

Kings Asa's father was Abijam.

Abishalom *IS* Absalom, they are variant spellings of the same name/person.

 

[prodromos]

The church has the power to "bind and loosen" but does the RCC have the authority to place people into heaven?

John 3:13

Virgil isn't RCC

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Virgil isn't RCC

?

 

[prodromos]

?

Virgil is an enquirer into the Orthodox Church. The answers he has been giving you are according to Orthodox theology and praxis. I'm just pointing that out to you, because you appear by your questions to have assumed he is answering for the Catholic Church.

 

[prodromos]

Well then let's get John the Baptist up there too.
Matthew 11:11

The Orthodox Church recognises that Mary and John the Baptist are the two who sit at Christ's right and left hand in His kingdom. This is reflected on the iconostasis of most Orthodox Churches.

 

[pescador]

--SE--

Where does it say anywhere that Mariam (a.k.a Mary) is the second holiest person after Our Blessed Lord Himself?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where does it say anywhere that Mariam (a.k.a Mary) is the second holiest person after Our Blessed Lord Himself?

In the minds of millions Mary is actually the most holy person in heaven.

 

[pescador]

In the minds of millions Mary is actually the most holy person in heaven.

More than Jesus?? Just because millions believe something doesn't make it true. What is the proof that Mary is even in heaven?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

More than Jesus?? Just because millions believe something doesn't make it true. What is the proof that Mary is even in heaven?

That's what I'd like to know too.

 

[prodromos]

In the minds of millions Mary is actually the most holy person in heaven.

I thought only God could know the hearts and minds of people. Are you god?

 

[amariselle]

How is this okay?

I, (name) a faithless sinner-- renew and ratify today in thy hands, O Immaculate Mother, the vows of my Baptism; I renounce forever Satan, his pomps and works; and I give myself entirely to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom, to carry my cross after Him all the days of my life, and to be more faithful to Him than I have ever been before.

Well, that sounds Biblical right? (The part about giving oneself entirely to Jesus)

Then what is this?

In the presence of all the heavenly court I choose thee this day, for my Mother and Mistress. I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure, for the greater glory of God, in time and in eternity. Amen.

(St. Louis-De Montfort's Consecration)
Nihil Obstat: Thomas W. Smiddy, S.T.D., Cen. Lib.
Imprimatur: Thomas Edwards Molloy, Bishop of Brooklyn
Source: The Secret of the Rosary by Saint Louis Mary De Monfort, Montfort Publications, 1954

This is pretty obviously utter blasphemy, and it's been prayed by who knows how many people.

It is blasphemous for anyone to say to "Mary" that they deliver and consecrate themselves to her, as her "slave", their body and soul and everything they own, for her to dispose of according to her "good pleasure"!

How in the world does anyone believe that the above prayer does not constitute worship? Or that such a prayer should ever be said to anyone but God?

Here is another example:

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.
We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are.
To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.
We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction.
` And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.
We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.
We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day.
We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.
Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth. Amen.

Or how about this?

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven and Earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima, I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself, my brethren, my country and the whole human race.
Reign over us, Most Holy Mother of God, and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee.
Reign over us, Most Blessed Virgin, that we may be Thine in prosperity and in adversity, in joy and in sorrow, in health and in sickness, in life and in death.

O most compassionate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima.

Assist us in imitating You in all things, especially purity. Help us to call down upon our country and upon the whole world the peace of God in justice and charity.

Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother, I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues by the practice of a true Christian life without regard to human respect.
I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly and to offer to Thee five decades of the Rosary each day, together with my sacrifices, in the spirit of reparation and penance. Amen.

But no one prays to Mary, right? They just ask her to pray for them. And no one worships Mary, right? They ask her to pray for them just like others ask their friends to pray for specific needs and concerns.

Really?

Try saying one of the above prayers to a friend.

Yes, people do worship Mary. Not all Catholics do so, but many do.

Here's the link to various Catholic "Marian Prayers."

Marian (Mary) Prayers - Prayers - Catholic Online

 

[kepha31]

How is this okay?

I, (name) a faithless sinner-- renew and ratify today in thy hands, O Immaculate Mother, the vows of my Baptism; I renounce forever Satan, his pomps and works; and I give myself entirely to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom, to carry my cross after Him all the days of my life, and to be more faithful to Him than I have ever been before.

Well, that sounds Biblical right? (The part about giving oneself entirely to Jesus)

Then what is this?

In the presence of all the heavenly court I choose thee this day, for my Mother and Mistress. I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure, for the greater glory of God, in time and in eternity. Amen.

(St. Louis-De Montfort's Consecration)
Nihil Obstat: Thomas W. Smiddy, S.T.D., Cen. Lib.
Imprimatur: Thomas Edwards Molloy, Bishop of Brooklyn
Source: The Secret of the Rosary by Saint Louis Mary De Monfort, Montfort Publications, 1954

This is pretty obviously utter blasphemy, and it's been prayed by who knows how many people.

It is blasphemous for anyone to say to "Mary" that they deliver and consecrate themselves to her, as her "slave", their body and soul and everything they own, for her to dispose of according to her "good pleasure"!

How in the world does anyone believe that the above prayer does not constitute worship? Or that such a prayer should ever be said to anyone but God?

Here is another example:

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.
We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are.
To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.
We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction.
` And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.
We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.
We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day.
We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.
Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth. Amen.

Or how about this?

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven and Earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima, I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself, my brethren, my country and the whole human race.
Reign over us, Most Holy Mother of God, and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee.
Reign over us, Most Blessed Virgin, that we may be Thine in prosperity and in adversity, in joy and in sorrow, in health and in sickness, in life and in death.

O most compassionate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima.

Assist us in imitating You in all things, especially purity. Help us to call down upon our country and upon the whole world the peace of God in justice and charity.

Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother, I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues by the practice of a true Christian life without regard to human respect.
I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly and to offer to Thee five decades of the Rosary each day, together with my sacrifices, in the spirit of reparation and penance. Amen.

But no one prays to Mary, right? They just ask her to pray for them. And no one worships Mary, right? They ask her to pray for them just like others ask their friends to pray for specific needs and concerns.

Really?

Try saying one of the above prayers to a friend.

Yes, people do worship Mary. Not all Catholics do so, but many do.

Here's the link to various Catholic "Marian Prayers."

Marian (Mary) Prayers - Prayers - Catholic Online

Double posting, amariselle? This post was refuted here post #577 but the thread got closed. Probably because the 'Marian devotion' bashing got too intense.

 

[kepha31]

Where does it say anywhere that Mariam (a.k.a Mary) is the second holiest person after Our Blessed Lord Himself?

Luke 1:28 – the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person – Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
Who else would you propose to be the second holiest (if there is such a thing) in heaven?