Who is the Church? According to Lutheranism.

[LizaMarie]

Personally, I can get behind the idea of a "cleansing" before we enter Heaven. There's a few passages in Scripture that mention "fire." 1 Corinthians 3 for reference. Now, do we need to pay for them here in the form of indulgences? No, Christ made the way for us to enter Heaven, but nothing unclean will enter. If there is a temporary state where we need to be cleansed, I think it's very brief.

All that to say, this isn't a matter of salvation. There's nothing in Scripture saying we have to believe in Purgatory. It's adiaphora.

Yes this is what I believe.

 

[FaithT]

Good question! I will let someone more knowledgeable than I answer as this is a big reason I started looking into the Apostolic Churches.

My pastor told me that it’s a mystery and that the consecration is done by God (the Holy Spirit).

 

[LizaMarie]

I believe the same, that cleansing 'fire' in 1 Corinthians 3:12 is Christ's judgement. Our material, earthly, selfish 'works' being burned up as hay, wood and stubble and our spiritual 'works' being burned as gold, silver and precious stones. Gold, silver and precious stones won't be consumed in fire, they describe what Christ desires most from his faithful servants. He wants us to spread the Gospel to sinners, help other Christians grow, edify and feed his sheep spiritually, allow them to grow into mature Christians so they will one day be able to edify others.

God Bless

Yes I agree as well.

 

[Roymond]

I agree with a poster up in the Anglican section who has said that the "Traditional Church."is the Roman, Orthodox and Lutheran/Reformed. These are churches where the gospel is preached and the sacraments rightly administered. And this is what I still believe, and why it is hard for me to believe that the Church is only the RCC or Orthodox or whatever.
I do know that today that confessionals Lutherans would say that the invisible church would be anyone who professes Jesus Christ as savior and trusts in his death on the Cross as payment in full for our sins. So this would be the invisible church that Luther talked about.
I have been inquiring in Orthodoxy, and was one time looking into the RCC, but I was a bit put off that the RCC basically say you cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church(unless one is ignorant that it is necessary for Salvation) and the Orthodox will say they know where the Church is, but not where she isn't(which I like a lot better) but outside of Orthodoxy the Western churches are hetrodox and do not have valid sacraments.
I also know that when the idea of church was written by Luther and the Reformers let's face it there were not so many sects and schisms as there are today. So would they consider Anabaptists part of the Church?
I have always been a "Mere Christianity" Christian, but the reason I went back to traditional Lutheranism, is I very much believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and regenerational Baptism. In fact I would go on to say I don't understand why we don't have the other 5 sacraments as well.

It's a matter of defining what a sacrament is. The Lutheran definition requires a promise given by Christ, and action commanded by Christ, a physical 'element', and words given by Christ. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are obviously sacraments then, because all of those aspects are clear. Many Lutherans consider Confession/Absolution to be a sacrament as well, though the various aspects aren't quite as clear. But Christ did not institute a priesthood in any clear way, nor did He attach any promise to it, nor for that matter did He give us words to us -- and the same is true for marriage and the others. There's another criterion that is sometimes applied, and that is a sacrament has to be something offered equally to all -- which rules out ordination and marriage but includes anointing the sick, confession/absolution, and confirmation (also called chrismation).
Those "other 5" are sometimes called "sacramentals", meaning they're very similar to a sacrament but don't quite qualify (the two that are least like a sacrament are marriage and ordination, which in the Roman Catholic system are mutually exclusive). All seven do have special ritual/liturgy associated with them, so they appear similar in that way.

 

[Roymond]

As a former Catholic, I have heard that exact statement in the RCC too. I would say the RCC is actually more accomodating as to who is Christian and who is not, compared to Orthodoxy.

At least the RCC recognizes Orthodox and Church of the East sacraments, Orthodox don't extend that outside. IIRC they even recognize some Anglican Apostolic Succession, even if they do not believe it is licit.

That is hard to say...I think they would recognize that they are Christian, but that their understanding of the faith is incorrect. Luther very much disagreed with Zwingli on the Real Presence, but he recognized them as Christian.

We don't have them because the scriptures and Jesus was not explicit about them, that is the reason we have the two that we do. But that is not to say that they should not be revered and practiced anyways. The Lutheran churches do practice all of them, just not as Sacraments. At least we do still keep them compared to many churches that have dropped them all together. Lutherans still have confirmation, unction, marriage, confession (personal and corporate), and to a degree Holy Orders. In fact, the Lutheran position on Vocation would esteem a few of those Sacraments greatly.

The prime difference between the other liturgical churches and Lutherans is that the others all focus on ritual and actions as the operating principle in the sacraments, but Luther brought it back to the Word, always the Word, and only through intermediaries when that is necessary by the nature of the thing -- and even then, those intermediaries are nothing in themselves, they are stand-ins for Jesus, letting Him speak His words once again through them. I forget which Father said it, but one made the statement that the priest is nothing in himself, he is but loaning his hands and lips and tongue to Jesus, so that the Words of Institution in the Sacrament of the Altar are actually spoken by Jesus, and it is those words of Jesus which make the elements be the Body and the Blood.

 

[Roymond]

But 1) how do we get out of Purgatory?
And, 2) Lutherans don’t believe in Purgatory anyway, right?

Does anyone here have Scriptural support for Purgatory or the Lutheran belief that there is no such thing (assuming we don’t believe in it).

The only scriptural support applies not to Purgatory as a place, but to purgation as a process (which is what the Orthodox hold to). Paul speaks of those whose works don't measure up as being saved as through fire -- in other words, purged.