Who is the Church? According to Lutheranism.

[LizaMarie]

Interesting is a good way to look at it, comfortable in your confession. I think that more times than not people in that position are offended, often without looking into the theological reasons why. I was a convert to the RCC, so my route was a little different.

Why did you leave the RCC? If you don't mind me asking. If you don't want to answer that's OK. We had looked into the RCC many years ago, and I definitely respect them as fellow Christians but that's the subject for another thread.

 

[LizaMarie]

But 1) how do we get out of Purgatory?
And, 2) Lutherans don’t believe in Purgatory anyway, right?

Does anyone here have Scriptural support for Purgatory or the Lutheran belief that there is no such thing (assuming we don’t believe in it).

Actually I don't necessarily object to the idea of a purging or judgement of believers after death(1 Corinthians 3:15) but the Reformers rejected to the way the doctrine had grown into something completely unbiblical. And the Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory.

 

[LizaMarie]

I love the liturgy, my wife not so much. She loves contemporary services, I think sacraments, Lutheran view on justification are important. I believe in the real presence. We have a Lutheran church that only does contemporary in our city and it’s a compromise, but I still get word and sacrament.

The real presence is a deal breaker for me or I would have probably stayed Calvary Chapel.

 

[FaithT]

The real presence is a deal breaker for me or I would have probably stayed Calvary Chapel.

I just went to a communion service this afternoon. Since reopening after Covid came into our lives, we’ve been having a Wednesday communion service every week. I’m still wondering how we know our communion really is the Real Presence and consecrated by someone qualified to do so?

 

[LizaMarie]

I just went to a communion service this afternoon. Since reopening after Covid came into our lives, we’ve been having a Wednesday communion service every week. I’m still wondering how we know our communion really is the Real Presence and consecrated by someone qualified to do so?

Good question! I will let someone more knowledgeable than I answer as this is a big reason I started looking into the Apostolic Churches.

 

[Victor in Christ]

I love contemporary services, which my church has. We still have prayer, communion, sermons (“message”) and everything, but the pastors wear street clothes, the music is contemporary and Sermons are done as a series.

makes me question, would he wear street clothes if he was asked to attend a wedding?

wow, i was talking to my uncle few weeks ago about dress code in the house of God and he seen similar. Ripped jeans/fashion trends all the worldly things one could imagine. Now, i'm not going to denounce those people as some may not not have decent clothes to wear (only the Lord is our judge). ....but my uncle knows these people are barristers/solicitors/judges yet they dress casually in the house of God.

 

[tampasteve]

But 1) how do we get out of Purgatory?
And, 2) Lutherans don’t believe in Purgatory anyway, right?

Does anyone here have Scriptural support for Purgatory or the Lutheran belief that there is no such thing (assuming we don’t believe in it).

We don't, that's just what the RCC believes we have in store for us

 

[tampasteve]

Why did you leave the RCC? If you don't mind me asking. If you don't want to answer that's OK. We had looked into the RCC many years ago, and I definitely respect them as fellow but that's the subject for another thread.

I don't mind at all, but I'll make a longer reply tomorrow

 

[FaithT]

makes me question, would he wear street clothes if he was asked to attend a wedding?

wow, i was talking to my uncle few weeks ago about dress code in the house of God and he seen similar. Ripped jeans/fashion trends all the worldly things one could imagine. Now, i'm not going to denounce those people as some may not not have decent clothes to wear (only the Lord is our judge). ....but my uncle knows these people are barristers/solicitors/judges yet they dress casually in the house of God.

I have no idea what they wear when performing weddings. And our pastors don’t wear ripped jeans or trendy clothing (that was at the ND church I went to). They wear pants, not denim, and a nice shirt. They just don’t wear the collar, alb or vestments. IOW, they look like pastors not priests.

 

[FaithT]

We don't, that's just what the RCC believes we have in store for us

We don’t what? Believe in purgatory? Is there scriptural support to prove there’s is no such thing, or does the Bible lack any mention or suggestion of purgatory that would mean the CC is wrong about it?

 

[Daniel9v9]

I don't know if you're interested, but I did a study on the Church based on a few great orthodox Lutheran works. I posted a summary of it here if you'd like to skim through it: The Church

 

[LizaMarie]

I don't know if you're interested, but I did a study on the Church based on a few great orthodox Lutheran works. I posted a summary of it here if you'd like to skim through it: The Church

Thanks! I'll read it as soon as I get a chance!

 

[tampasteve]

We don’t what? Believe in purgatory? Is there scriptural support to prove there’s is no such thing, or does the Bible lack any mention or suggestion of purgatory that would mean the CC is wrong about it?

We don't believe in Purgatory. There is some scripture and Tradition that points that it could have something to it, but nothing outstanding and more evidence that the belief is not scriptural. Much of the evidence is based on Merits from Saints and passages in Maccabees, which is not a scriptural book to Protestants or Jews.

Further, the whole issue around Purgatory, with Indulgences, etc. was the springboard for the Reformation. While the purchasing of Indulgences may be a non-issue now, the idea behind them and the use of Indulgences earned by other means is still very much a part of the RCC.

So, what I am saying is that the RCC believes we will go to Heaven, but we will be in Purgatory for a lot longer than they....but since we don't believe in Purgatory that is kind of null.

 

[tampasteve]

Why did you leave the RCC? If you don't mind me asking. If you don't want to answer that's OK. We had looked into the RCC many years ago, and I definitely respect them as fellow Christians but that's the subject for another thread.

Let me preface by saying that I still respect what the RCC stands for on many issues, I respect the theology written, and many of the people that are there. The priest that I went through RCIA with and attended his parish for close to 10 years was and is a fantastic man. The other priests at that church were also truly men of God, if I were still in the same life situation I might still be Catholic. That parish is truly alive with the Spirit and is a wonderful Christian home.

In essence, I had a divorce based on infidelity from my then wife. This caused a faith crisis in general and caused me to look at my faith from the roots up. Several of the issues I had with the RCC all along remained: Papal infallibility, the sex scandals, Pope Francis in general, etc. When I looked at the Lutheran church I found that most of what I liked about the RCC remained, but the things I did not like were not there. Some things are still missing, things that the RCC does well, but I can't go back due to a number of reasons.

I'll send you a PM with a longer reply, if you want to start a thread about it that would be fine with me, my story is not hidden - it is played out over these forums over the years. But it probably exceeds the scope of this thread.

 

[TKA_TN]

We don’t what? Believe in purgatory? Is there scriptural support to prove there’s is no such thing, or does the Bible lack any mention or suggestion of purgatory that would mean the CC is wrong about it?

Personally, I can get behind the idea of a "cleansing" before we enter Heaven. There's a few passages in Scripture that mention "fire." 1 Corinthians 3 for reference. Now, do we need to pay for them here in the form of indulgences? No, Christ made the way for us to enter Heaven, but nothing unclean will enter. If there is a temporary state where we need to be cleansed, I think it's very brief.

All that to say, this isn't a matter of salvation. There's nothing in Scripture saying we have to believe in Purgatory. It's adiaphora.

 

[LizaMarie]

Let me preface by saying that I still respect what the RCC stands for on many issues, I respect the theology written, and many of the people that are there. The priest that I went through RCIA with and attended his parish for close to 10 years was and is a fantastic man. The other priests at that church were also truly men of God, if I were still in the same life situation I might still be Catholic. That parish is truly alive with the Spirit and is a wonderful Christian home.

In essence, I had a divorce based on infidelity from my then wife. This caused a faith crisis in general and caused me to look at my faith from the roots up. Several of the issues I had with the RCC all along remained: Papal infallibility, the sex scandals, Pope Francis in general, etc. When I looked at the Lutheran church I found that most of what I liked about the RCC remained, but the things I did not like were not there. Some things are still missing, things that the RCC does well, but I can't go back due to a number of reasons.

I'll send you a PM with a longer reply, if you want to start a thread about it that would be fine with me, my story is not hidden - it is played out over these forums over the years. But it probably exceeds the scope of this thread.

I may be in the same boat- both my husband and I looked at the RCC as well because I was so impressed with the consistent pro-life stance but my husband has a previous marriage as well(I was never married before) and none of us ever being Catholic(in

Let me preface by saying that I still respect what the RCC stands for on many issues, I respect the theology written, and many of the people that are there. The priest that I went through RCIA with and attended his parish for close to 10 years was and is a fantastic man. The other priests at that church were also truly men of God, if I were still in the same life situation I might still be Catholic. That parish is truly alive with the Spirit and is a wonderful Christian home.

In essence, I had a divorce based on infidelity from my then wife. This caused a faith crisis in general and caused me to look at my faith from the roots up. Several of the issues I had with the RCC all along remained: Papal infallibility, the sex scandals, Pope Francis in general, etc. When I looked at the Lutheran church I found that most of what I liked about the RCC remained, but the things I did not like were not there. Some things are still missing, things that the RCC does well, but I can't go back due to a number of reasons.

I'll send you a PM with a longer reply, if you want to start a thread about it that would be fine with me, my story is not hidden - it is played out over these forums over the years. But it probably exceeds the scope of this thread.

I will answer when I get a chance-sounds similar to what I'm going through.

 

[FaithT]

I may be in the same boat- both my husband and I looked at the RCC as well because I was so impressed with the consistent pro-life stance but my husband has a previous marriage as well(I was never married before) and none of us ever being Catholic(in

I will answer when I get a chance-sounds similar to what I'm going through.

There are so many people who’ve either left the RCC or who considered becoming Catholic but didn’t because of a previous marriage. Lots of hoops to jump through in order to get right with the Church in that situation.
Also, I’ve read that if someone were to marry a person who’s in a wheelchair and is unable to consummate the marriage, they can’t marry in the RCC. Not sure if it’s true or not but I think it is true.

 

[LizaMarie]

There are so many people who’ve either left the RCC or who considered becoming Catholic but didn’t because of a previous marriage. Lots of hoops to jump through in order to get right with the Church in that situation.
Also, I’ve read that if someone were to marry a person who’s in a wheelchair and is unable to consummate the marriage, they can’t marry in the RCC. Not sure if it’s true or not but I think it is true.

I think you might be right about that.

 

[Victor in Christ]

The real presence is a deal breaker for me or I would have probably stayed Calvary Chapel.

I just went to a communion service this afternoon. Since reopening after Covid came into our lives, we’ve been having a Wednesday communion service every week. I’m still wondering how we know our communion really is the Real Presence and consecrated by someone qualified to do so?

Good question! I will let someone more knowledgeable than I answer as this is a big reason I started looking into the Apostolic Churches.

Hi, i accidentally came across this thread in the RCC section.
For those who struggle with transubstantiation

 

[Victor in Christ]

Personally, I can get behind the idea of a "cleansing" before we enter Heaven. There's a few passages in Scripture that mention "fire." 1 Corinthians 3 for reference. Now, do we need to pay for them here in the form of indulgences? No, Christ made the way for us to enter Heaven, but nothing unclean will enter. If there is a temporary state where we need to be cleansed, I think it's very brief.

I believe the same, that cleansing 'fire' in 1 Corinthians 3:12 is Christ's judgement. Our material, earthly, selfish 'works' being burned up as hay, wood and stubble and our spiritual 'works' being burned as gold, silver and precious stones. Gold, silver and precious stones won't be consumed in fire, they describe what Christ desires most from his faithful servants. He wants us to spread the Gospel to sinners, help other Christians grow, edify and feed his sheep spiritually, allow them to grow into mature Christians so they will one day be able to edify others.

God Bless