Who is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal?

Jensghost

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very cool!
so where is th land of Magog that Gog comes from? is God the land of Magog actually a nation named Gog?

what is that nation?

*fascinated*

~ child

Technically, magog, mechech, tubal are all sons of Japeth, grandsons of Noah.

It could refer to the lands those men settled in.

Apparently Russians understand that Meshech and Tubal are ancient names of the Russian cities of Moscow and Toblisk.

Some consider magog to be the area of Turkey or the Balkan states.

Genesis 10


1Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

IF the ark did end up on a mountain in Turkey, it is not outside the realm of possiblity that Noah's grandsons started cities, named after themselves, in that general vicinity.
 
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Biblewriter

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I spent literally years researching this question.

The oldest reference to Gog fond in in any historical book is a sermon by the Patriarch Proclus, who is thought to have lived from A.D. 434-447. He citedEzekiel 38-39 in a sermon against the Hunnic invasions, coming out of what is today called the Ukraine, or the southern part of Russia.

I showed this passage in a Russian Bible to a Russian immigrant who had no theological training. He was, in fact, an atheist, trained in the communist schools of Russia. I asked him to read it and tell me in English what it said. He simply read thus:

“See, I am against you, oh Gogae, uh– uh– second step.” I asked, “prince?” he answered, “Yes.” He continued reading, “prince of Russia, Meshchovsk, and Tobolsk.” I asked, “Russia, is that what it says?” He answered, “Well, no, not exactly, but that’s what it means.” Then he wrote on a slip of paper the word “Rosh” and said “people.” He then wrote “Rosha” and said “country.” He was therefore saying that it called Gog the “prince of the people of Russia.” It is interesting that without hesitation he read Meshech as Meshchovsk and Tubal as Tobolsk.

There is a problem in the translation of the Hebrew word translated chief. The Hebrew word rosh means top, or chief. (word number 7218 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) If we assume this is only a word, the proper translation is “chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.” If, however, rosh is a name, the proper translation is, as given in the New King James and many other translations, “prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” The various translations are divided on this point, some giving one reading, some the other. Some might ask, was the R originally a capital letter, indicating a name? But ancient Hebrew did not have capital and small letters. We know the ancient Jews considered this a name from the Septuagint, a Hebrew translation of the scriptures into Greek, believed to date from the second century B.C. For in the Septuagint it was transliterated as Ros, preserving its sound as closely as possible in Greek, rather than by translating it as protos, the Greek adjective meaning chief. In translating, it is standard practice to reproduce the sound of a name as closely as possible, rather than attempting to reproduce the meaning of the name. This proves that the scholars that translated the Septuagint considered this word a name, rather than an adjective.

So the two oldest known sources on this passage both considered the Hebrew word rsh in Ezekiel 38 and 39 to be a name, rather than an adjective. And so do the modern Russians.
 
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Jensghost

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Child of Jesus, Biblewriter has some very unique insight and research into all of this and I would highly recommend asking him questions about it all.

I am nearing the extent of my understanding and research of it at this point.

Biblewriter, didn't you once say that you thought the land of Magog was Turkey/Germany?
 
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child of Jesus

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I spent literally years researching this question.

The oldest reference to Gog fond in in any historical book is a sermon by the Patriarch Proclus, who is thought to have lived from A.D. 434-447. He citedEzekiel 38-39 in a sermon against the Hunnic invasions, coming out of what is today called the Ukraine, or the southern part of Russia.

I showed this passage in a Russian Bible to a Russian immigrant who had no theological training. He was, in fact, an atheist, trained in the communist schools of Russia. I asked him to read it and tell me in English what it said. He simply read thus:

“See, I am against you, oh Gogae, uh– uh– second step.” I asked, “prince?” he answered, “Yes.” He continued reading, “prince of Russia, Meshchovsk, and Tobolsk.” I asked, “Russia, is that what it says?” He answered, “Well, no, not exactly, but that’s what it means.” Then he wrote on a slip of paper the word “Rosh” and said “people.” He then wrote “Rosha” and said “country.” He was therefore saying that it called Gog the “prince of the people of Russia.” It is interesting that without hesitation he read Meshech as Meshchovsk and Tubal as Tobolsk.

There is a problem in the translation of the Hebrew word translated chief. The Hebrew word rosh means top, or chief. (word number 7218 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) If we assume this is only a word, the proper translation is “chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.” If, however, rosh is a name, the proper translation is, as given in the New King James and many other translations, “prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.” The various translations are divided on this point, some giving one reading, some the other. Some might ask, was the R originally a capital letter, indicating a name? But ancient Hebrew did not have capital and small letters. We know the ancient Jews considered this a name from the Septuagint, a Hebrew translation of the scriptures into Greek, believed to date from the second century B.C. For in the Septuagint it was transliterated as Ros, preserving its sound as closely as possible in Greek, rather than by translating it as protos, the Greek adjective meaning chief. In translating, it is standard practice to reproduce the sound of a name as closely as possible, rather than attempting to reproduce the meaning of the name. This proves that the scholars that translated the Septuagint considered this word a name, rather than an adjective.

So the two oldest known sources on this passage both considered the Hebrew word rsh in Ezekiel 38 and 39 to be a name, rather than an adjective. And so do the modern Russians.

very cool.
thanks very much!
i've generally heard it said this was russia (in the broadest sense).

please check in tomorrow as i have something to present that is perplexing, to say the least, and i really seek opinions on it....

thanks Biblewriter!
~ child.
 
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child of Jesus

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Child of Jesus, Biblewriter has some very unique insight and research into all of this and I would highly recommend asking him questions about it all.

I am nearing the extent of my understanding and research of it at this point.

Biblewriter, didn't you once say that you thought the land of Magog was Turkey/Germany?

ok JGhost. thanks for your help.
again, check tomorrow to see what i have; it's astonishing and i'll be looking for insight on it.

~ child.
 
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Biblewriter

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Child of Jesus, Biblewriter has some very unique insight and research into all of this and I would highly recommend asking him questions about it all.

I am nearing the extent of my understanding and research of it at this point.

Biblewriter, didn't you once say that you thought the land of Magog was Turkey/Germany?

You are right about my research. I devoted literally years of original research in ancient books, maps, monuments, and records to identify the ancient places and nations in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

After I had reached my conclusions, I cross-checked them against the most up-to-date scholarship available. I found that my conclusions were exactly the same as those of the historians who had specialized in each of the fields involved.

But I did not say that Magog was either Turkey or Germany. The famous Jewish historian Josephus said that Magog was the father of the Magogites, but that the Greeks called that tribe the Scythians. The Scythians were a well known nomadic tribe that inhabited what is now called the Ukraine. They rode horses, so they needed grasslands, and the Ukraine was almost totally grassland.

Turkey, on the other hand, was the ancient homeland of Meshech and Tubal. These two nations are almost always mentioned together in the ancient literature, and are known to have inhabited the eastern region of modern day Turkey. But in those days, it was not Turkey. The Turks invaded this area in about the year 1050. They were so well known for their cruelty that the vast bulk of the populations of Meshech and Tubal fled before they arrived. Since they came from the east and south, the only way to flee was to the north, into the Ukraine, what is known as southern Russia.

The names Moscow and Muscovy were first mentioned in the early Russian chronicles about a hundred years after this. The name Tobol appeared even later than that. So it appears that Meshech was the source of the name Muscow or Moscow, and that Tubal was the source of the name Tobol, or Tobolisk. These, of course, are two major regions of modern Russia.

So I do not believe that there can be any reasonable doubt that Gog is the last great leader of Russia.

But his allies are not just the Moslem nations, as many allege. They include "all the bands of Gomer."

The Biblical name Gomer occurs in the Armenian language as Gamer, in the Assyrian language as the Gammerria, and in the Greek language as the Cimmerrians.

The Cimmerians are well known as the ancestors of the Gauls, who in turn are well known as the ancestors of the kelts, or Celts. These are the ancestors of most of western Europe, the Americas, and Australia.

This throws a monkey wrench into most of the interpretations of this chapter. If it is correct, and I am absolutely certain it is, then when Russia attacks Israel, its allies will include Iran, Lybia, France, Germany, England, The United States, and Australia, plus probably most of South America and Africa.

In short, this will be a united world attacking Israel, and being totally defeated.
 
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Jensghost

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You are right about my research. I devoted literally years of original research in ancient books, maps, monuments, and records to identify the ancient places and nations in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

After I had reached my conclusions, I cross-checked them against the most up-to-date scholarship available. I found that my conclusions were exactly the same as those of the historians who had specialized in each of the fields involved.

But I did not say that Magog was either Turkey or Germany. The famous Jewish historian Josephus said that Magog was the father of the Magogites, but that the Greeks called that tribe the Scythians. The Scythians were a well known nomadic tribe that inhabited what is now called the Ukraine. They rode horses, so they needed grasslands, and the Ukraine was almost totally grassland.

Turkey, on the other hand, was the ancient homeland of Meshech and Tubal. These two nations are almost always mentioned together in the ancient literature, and are known to have inhabited the eastern region of modern day Turkey. But in those days, it was not Turkey. The Turks invaded this area in about the year 1050. They were so well known for their cruelty that the vast bulk of the populations of Meshech and Tubal fled before they arrived. Since they came from the east and south, the only way to flee was to the north, into the Ukraine, what is known as southern Russia.

The names Moscow and Muscovy were first mentioned in the early Russian chronicles about a hundred years after this. The name Tobol appeared even later than that. So it appears that Meshech was the source of the name Muscow or Moscow, and that Tubal was the source of the name Tobol, or Tobolisk. These, of course, are two major regions of modern Russia.

So I do not believe that there can be any reasonable doubt that Gog is the last great leader of Russia.

But his allies are not just the Moslem nations, as many allege. They include "all the bands of Gomer."

The Biblical name Gomer occurs in the Armenian language as Gamer, in the Assyrian language as the Gammerria, and in the Greek language as the Cimmerrians.

The Cimmerians are well known as the ancestors of the Gauls, who in turn are well known as the ancestors of the kelts, or Celts. These are the ancestors of most of western Europe, the Americas, and Australia.

This throws a monkey wrench into most of the interpretations of this chapter. If it is correct, and I am absolutely certain it is, then when Russia attacks Israel, its allies will include Iran, Lybia, France, Germany, England, The United States, and Australia, plus probably most of South America and Africa.

In short, this will be a united world attacking Israel, and being totally defeated.

That's sobering.

It would've been hard for me to imagine Western allies attacking Israel until the latest president took office and the rise of Islam in England.

The world has changed. I think it is in preparation for that event at what follows. It amazes me how all the signs are converging.
 
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child of Jesus

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hey friends...thanks for the input.
i'll post this now and hopefully get some thoughts on it tomorrow.

i saw this at the time in '08 but it barely made news.

what do you make of it? (we know Bush Sr.'s "nickname" in his funhouse Skull & Bones is Magog:idea:)

~ child

EXCERPT: (click to original source to see the actual scroll)



28 Tevet, 5768 / January 6, 2008

In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God

To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,

Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!

Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!

Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,

The Temple Institute: Megillat Bush
 
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Jensghost

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hey friends...thanks for the input.
i'll post this now and hopefully get some thoughts on it tomorrow.

i saw this at the time in '08 but it barely made news.

what do you make of it? (we know Bush Sr.'s "nickname" in his funhouse Skull & Bones is Magog:idea:)

~ child

EXCERPT: (click to original source to see the actual scroll)



28 Tevet, 5768 / January 6, 2008

In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God

To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,

Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!

Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!

Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,

The Temple Institute: Megillat Bush

I think the Jewish people who wrote that backed off of it not long after they wrote it, as I recall.

I think it actually speaks to Israel's current blindness until the church is brought in, more than anything else.
 
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Biblewriter

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hey friends...thanks for the input.
i'll post this now and hopefully get some thoughts on it tomorrow.

i saw this at the time in '08 but it barely made news.

what do you make of it? (we know Bush Sr.'s "nickname" in his funhouse Skull & Bones is Magog:idea:)

~ child

EXCERPT: (click to original source to see the actual scroll)



28 Tevet, 5768 / January 6, 2008

In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God

To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,

Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!

Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!

Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,

The Temple Institute: Megillat Bush

Although it was spoken concerning another time, I am reminded of the last part of Daniel 11:14, "also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall."

Magog is the Scythians. To be "of the land of Magog," a person would have to be "of the land" that the Scythians inhabited. This excludes any and every American and any and every western European.
 
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granpa

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“prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.”

genesis 10
1And these [are] births of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and born to them are sons after the deluge.
2`Sons of Japheth [are] Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Japhet is father of the indo-europeans

IMHO:
magog is india (black aryans)
Javan is greece
tubal is rome
meshech is france
tiras is spain

Gog is the (spiritually black) aryan racist leader of rome
(think Hitler)
 
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child of Jesus

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I think the Jewish people who wrote that backed off of it not long after they wrote it, as I recall.

I think it actually speaks to Israel's current blindness until the church is brought in, more than anything else.

hi Jghost:

?? backed off of it?

you suppose they just made up the title and applied it to Bush, or is there more to it than that?

if they considered him to be Gog, why the friendly relations?

regarding the Church being brought in, i am Amil, so not sure how that'll work.

thanks for your reply.
 
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child of Jesus

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Although it was spoken concerning another time, I am reminded of the last part of Daniel 11:14, "also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall."

Magog is the Scythians. To be "of the land of Magog," a person would have to be "of the land" that the Scythians inhabited. This excludes any and every American and any and every western European.

hi Biblewriter:
i've wondered if this all actually refers to the Khazars? (per Rev 2:9, 3:9, at a minimum)
~ child.
 
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child of Jesus

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“prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.”

genesis 10
1And these [are] births of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and born to them are sons after the deluge.
2`Sons of Japheth [are] Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Japhet is father of the indo-europeans

IMHO:
magog is india (black aryans)
Javan is greece
tubal is rome
meshech is france
tiras is spain

Gog is the (spiritually black) aryan racist leader of rome
(think Hitler)[/quote]


we may agree here...but Rome is not Mystery Babylon The GREAT: Jerusalem is.
all real historical evidence points to a bait & switch taking place on the global stage today: no high leaders are who they appear to be.
the plot thickens.
 
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Jensghost

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hi Jghost:

?? backed off of it?

you suppose they just made up the title and applied it to Bush, or is there more to it than that?

if they considered him to be Gog, why the friendly relations?

regarding the Church being brought in, i am Amil, so not sure how that'll work.

thanks for your reply.


Yeah, they would've had to have backed off accusing Bush of being gog especially once Bush was no longer in office, having the power to do anything.
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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Yeah, they would've had to have backed off accusing Bush of being gog especially once Bush was no longer in office, having the power to do anything.

Maybe they were just associating the 'King of the West' position. Not necessarily the individual?

That position also carries much weight in the U.N. now.

I think Obama has some kind of grand oversight position at the U.N. council meetings thesedays?
 
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