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Who is the angel of the Lord in OT

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by cougan, Jun 17, 2002.

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  1. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    Who is the angel of the Lord in the OT?

    I would like your input on this. I am doing a study on this right now and I find it an interesting study. If you study the angle of the Lord in the OT I think you will find that this messenger has characteristics of deity. You will see him make oaths and swear by himself. You will see him put words into peoples mouth and you will see him accept worship. The angel of the lord is refered to as God and lord back and forth in certain verses. The people that encouter him fear their lifes because they say they have seen God. From my study on the subject I cant help but conclude that the the angel of the lord is non other than the word found in John 1 which is the preincarinate Jesus. Notice that Jesus in John 8:58 say he was the I AM which was the same thing that we find in the burning bush with Moses. This was just a glimpse and I look forward to a discussion on this topic.

    Thanks. :wave:
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  2. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    Yes I shall like to see this discussion too. Your studies have led you to exactly the right conclusion and there is much proof of it. I shall watch this string closely.
  3. debs

    debs Member

    I only know one person who has seen the Angel of the Lord, and it wasnt Jesus
  4. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    United States
    cougan, can you cite some OT references referring to the "angel of the Lord" and any more NT verses you are cross-referrencing them against.

    God bles.
  5. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

    I recommend reading Joshua Chapter 5, as well as Genesis Chapters 17 and 18. You will see that this is GOD in the flesh, JESUS the body of GOD, appearing to the old testament saints. Compare this to Revelation, were John bows down to an angel that appears so magnificent that he believes him to be god. The angel immediately rebukes him and tells him not to do it. I am sure there are other instances of this happening. These are the ones that just came to mind. Peace, but not yet.
  6. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    "The commander of the LORD's army" (Joshua 5:14) is traditionally believed to be the Archangel Michael, representative of the Glorified Christ.

    If this is so, then this would be one of numerous instances in the Old Testament where the pre-incarnate Christ appears in visible form. Other such instances include Genesis 32:24-30 and Daniel 3:24-25.
  7. debs

    debs Member

    Youre all getting Jesus mixed up with Michael..I think youve made some assumptions along the way. At work we have a saying that "assumption is the mother of all muck-ups". It was the angel of the Lord that went to Egypt and killed the firstborns...I just cant visualise Jesus doing that can you?
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    I would like to point out the word angel simply means a messenger. The nature of the messenger must be determined by the context. Since I am trying to show that the AOTL is non other than the pre-incarnate word, which is Jesus Christ I want to quickly establish that he was there in the begining.
    We learn from John 1:1-3,14 that Jesus was the word that was with God in the begining and that all things were made by Jesus. See also Col 1:15-17,John 17:5, Rev 1:8 Now the father was the planner of all this and acomplished this through Jesus. Heb 1:1-3.

    Now ask youself the question do you really think that the word that became Jesus was just sitting around after the creation just waiting to become flesh? I would suggest that he was very active thourgh out the OT.

    The 1st person to encounter the AOTL was Hagar. Read Gen 16:6-13. You will notice the the AOTL promises to multiply Hagars Seed in verse 10 and in verse 13 she confesses that the AOTL is the God who sees. Who else could make such a promise other than deity. You will also notice that most of the people that encounter the AOTL will say something similar to Hagar calling him God. Again Hagar finds herself in trouble as her and her son get the boot. If you want to read the story its found in Gen 21:9-18 When you read verse 18 you discover that the angel of God (which is the AOTL;you will also see him refered as simply the angel)once again making an 1st person statement that he will make her son a great nation.

    Now Abraham has 3 encounters with the AOTL. We will take a look at the most famous one found in Gen 22:1-18. This is where God test Abraham to see if he will sacrfice his only son. In verse 11-12 you see the AOTL calling Abraham from heaven and telling him not to sacrifice his son. He goes on to say that you have not withheld your son from ME. Then when you get to verses 15-16 The AOTL calls out a 2nd time and he say that he swears by himself. Now if this was any other being besides deity then he would be able to swear by someone higher namely GOD. See Heb 6:13

    Now Jacob has 2 encounters with the AOTL. In Gen 28:10-19 we find Jacob running from his brother Esau and he spends the night at a place called Luz that he ends up calling Betheny(house of God) after seeing his vision of the stairway to heaven. You will have to read the verses but it is the Lord who speaks to him and makes him the promise. Now we find out later when Jacob is wanting to leave Laban after serving him for 20 years. In Gen 31:11-13 The angel of God speaks to Jacob in a dream and tells him that he is the God of Bethel. So here we have the angel of God claiming to be deity.

    The 2nd encounter is when Jacob wrestles The AOTL in Gen 32:22-30. Now it doesnt use the word angel anywhere in these verses, however we find out about 1000 years later from Hos 12:3-4 that it was the angel that he wrestled with. Another interesting point is that you will see that when the AOTL renames someone that the name will end in EL which is the Heb singular for God. You will also see the people naming the place of their encouter with a name ending in EL. For example the AOTL changes Jacobs name to Israel and Jacob calls the place Peniel (Facing God) In verse 30 Jacob claims to have seen God face to face.

    Notice how Jacob blesses his sons at the end of his life. It a bit unusally and seems obivious that the angel is God. Gen 48:15-16

    I will post some more I am in the process of typing this right now. I hope you find it interesting.
  9. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    I would like to offer the following to show how the AOTL can be God but different from the father which is God.

    The Messenger of Jehovah: distinct from Jehovah
    In spite of the fact that the holy messenger is endowed with the traits of deity, he is also distinguished from “Jehovah.” Repeatedly, he is designated as the “messenger of Jehovah,” i.e., he is Jehovah himself, and he is acting on behalf of another who is also Jehovah.

    In Exodus 23:20ff., Jehovah promised the children of Israel that he would “send an angel” before them as they sojourned in the wilderness of Sinai. This messenger would keep them, and bring them finally to Canaan. The Hebrews were warned to listen to his voice and not provoke him; otherwise, he would not forgive their transgressions. Jehovah said: “for my name is in him” (21) – which suggests the messenger is a supernatural being (cf. Cole, 181). Yet note the distinction between “my” and “him.”

    It would be appropriate at this point to anticipate a question that many sincere students doubtless have. Namely, how can this being be both “Jehovah,” and yet be a messenger “from Jehovah”?

    Is the designation “Jehovah” applied to more than one divine person? The answer is yes.

    The name “Jehovah” (Yahweh) is derived from a root form, havah, which means “to be,” or “being.” It suggests that deity is absolutely self-existent (Stone, 15). It thus is a fitting appellation for each of the persons within the holy trinity, since each of these is characterized by uninitiated existence.

    We are not surprised, therefore, to see references to more than one person who is designated as “Jehovah” – sometimes in the same passage. Isaiah declared: “Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts . . .” (44:6). See also Isa 40:3; Mat 3:3; Jer 23:6; Heb 1:8

    I wanted to establish this fact before I go on to Moses and the the burning bush in my next post.
  10. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    hmm I thought that was the angel of death debs, there is a difference between the angel of the Lord which is then directly given another name and THE angel of the Lord who many believe is jesus. its like the difference between "there was a son called robert; the son walked to school" and "The Son who died for our sins"....
  11. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    An angel of the Lord appears to a given person - thereafter referred to in the passage as the angel of the Lord (that is: the angel previously referred to)

    The angel of the Lord appears to a given person - that is a different statement, and has a different meaning.

    Is Michael the pre-incarnate the angel of the Lord?
    The possibility exists. Exodus 3:2-6 makes a probable identification (though it can be argued against) of a given theangel of the Lord as God.

    Judges 2:1 leaves absolutely no room for doubt on the issue of who this particular angel is ...
    The angel here claims responsibility for actions which, throughout the Bible, are attributed to God.

    There are other passages which make links between the angel of the Lord and God.

    Identifying Michael as God is a little more problematical.
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