• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Who is telling the truth, God or the Serpent?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:39 AM.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

    +711
    United States
    Private
    US-Others
    Who is telling the truth, God or the Serpent?

    Is there life immortal in Hell?


    Genesis 2:17
    ...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."



    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.



    Hades is Grave

    Comparing the Septuagint to the Masoretic.


    In the Old Testament, the word Hades in the Septuagint is the grave in the Masoretic text.

    So therefore the correct translation into English would be "grave."




    Hell. Germanic origin. Pagan Myth. The word was used to transfer the Pagan concept to Christian theology. For the Judaic-Christian origin of the concept, see Gehenna.


    Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Pagan Myth. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (Mentioned only once in the Bible)


    Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] Gr. Pagan Myth. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: The name is used in some modern translations of the New Testament.


    She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal ]] Hebrew word for grave. A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as place for the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.


    Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem used for dumping broken pottery.


    Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

    +711
    United States
    Private
    US-Others
    Do Pagan insertions into the bible count as scriptures and correct doctrine?
     
  3. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    +764
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    The serpent was mixing a lie and truth in order to deceive the woman.

    Genesis 3:4
    Here is what YHWH said:

    Genesis 3:22
    The serpent lied and told her they wouldn’t die, but then he told her the truth right after. They did become like Elohim, knowing good and evil, but the lie was that they would not die.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

    +5,782
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    M
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

    +711
    United States
    Private
    US-Others
    Perhaps the lack of a response means Christians are not sure who is telling the truth.
     
  6. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic and Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    +1,467
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Others
    Perhaps the lack of response is because the thread was posted early in the day and has only been up a couple of hours, and is in the Messianic Judaism forum rather than the wider General Theology or Controversial Christian Theology forums?

    But to give an opinion on the question, the "Pagan insertions" are attempts at translation based on the theology held. The word used is picked to describe the passage in question, which is of course what translation is all about. One should go with the original language when possible when making interpretations of the passages. As it is, the scripture can still be interpreted differently based on the passage read. Some can see annihilationism, soul sleep, traditional "Hell", or anywhere in between.

    To use one of your passages, is there really a difference between using "You will not surely die" and "You will not see the grave"? The message is the same, there is no reason to pick the verse apart.

    The concept of "hell" and torment, as viewed from a Christian perspective is something I have wrestled with. In the end I have settled that it just does not matter. I follow G-d as best that I can, but observing the things I believe He requires of me, so hopefully I will be on the good side in the end.
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

    +711
    United States
    Private
    US-Others
    The number of times "Hell" appears in the English Bible
    Translations


    Bible Translations
    Old Testament
    New Testament
    Total's
    Authorized" King James Version

    31
    23
    54
    New King James Version
    19
    13
    32
    American Standard Version
    0
    13
    13
    New American Standard Bible
    0
    13
    13
    Revised Standard Version
    0
    12
    12
    New Revised Standard Version
    0
    12
    12
    Revised English Bible
    0
    13
    13
    New Living Translation
    0
    13
    13
    Amplified
    0
    13
    13
    New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
    0
    14
    14
    Darby
    0
    12
    12
    New Century Version
    0
    12
    12
    Wesley's New Testament (1755)

    0
    0
    Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

    0
    0
    The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

    0
    0
    Young's Literal Translation (1891)
    0
    0
    0
    Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

    0
    0
    Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
    0
    0
    0
    Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
    0
    0
    0
    Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

    0
    0
    Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
    0

    0
    Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

    0
    0
    The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

    0
    0
    Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

    0
    0
    Western N.T. (1926)

    0
    0
    NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

    0
    0
    Concordant Literal NT (1983)

    0
    0
    The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

    0
    0
    Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

    0
    0
    New American Bible (1970)
    0
    0
    0
    Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
    0
    0
    0
    Tanakh. The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
    0

    0
    The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

    0
    0
    Christian Bible (1991)
    0
    0
    0
    World English Bible (in progress)
    0
    0
    0
    Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

    0
    0
    0
    Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)

    0
    0
    Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

    0
    0


    The word hell was not originally in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic text as the so called biased translators have tried to establish it as scripture; but they were not good enough to cover up the reality of what God is saying. The source of this word hell and the concept of eternal torture is not Christian, but Pagan. You can find it in Babylon, in Greece, and especially Rome. But if you dig a little bit deeper you will see that it is bad translations that have infected this doctrine of Damnation in scriptures. As a matter of fact, scripture teaches the opposite.
     
  8. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

    +711
    United States
    Private
    US-Others
    122 views in two hours. Wow!
     
  9. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant

    145
    +38
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Congratulations !

    ...how do you know the # of views...upgraded account?


    *Oh yeah ...my answer is Yah is telling the truth!
     
  10. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic and Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    +1,467
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Others
    I think anyone can see it, they are on the forum list view, you can see how many replies and views a topic has at any given time. :)
     
  11. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

    +243
    Messianic
    Single
    Definitively, the English word Soul comes from צול, it was believed that Souls returned to the צול Deep-Sea, thus making שאול (Sheol) and צול contextually synonymous.

    The Flesh of a Carnal being is a Spiritually Dead individual, who also serves as a Grave from which many are raised from the dead via birth, or Spiritual awakening.
     
  12. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

    +243
    Messianic
    Single
    What makes you so certain that Alôhâyîm was not referring to Adam becoming as One (who is) amongst us?

    That One being Satan.
     
  13. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

    +243
    Messianic
    Single
    The Serpent did not enter the picture until someone was found naked without shame.

    The Serpent exposed the disbelief of Eve, who would not have had a reason to do anything to be Like Alôhâyîm if she only believed that she and her husband were already (created to be) Like Alôhâyîm.

    She also did not find it important to quote Alôhâyîm, but instead she both added to His word, and diminished from it.

    The very moment they ate from the tree they became the Living Dead.

    Her disbelief affected her discernment, and allowed her to be deceived, for she actually saw the tree of knowledge of good and evil as being the tree of life.
     
  14. Seville90210

    Seville90210 Psalm 118:26

    179
    +58
    United States
    Baptist
    Single
    Life and death in the bible does not mean what you think it means.

    Adam and Eve lived in the spiritual realm when they were with God. There's no such thing as a physical death in the Garden of Eden or anywhere God dwells. Death in the bible does not always mean one cease from being physically alive, most often the biblical definition of death means a separation from God, no relationship. They were immediately cast out of the Garden of Eden, no longer able to dwell in God's presence, no longer able to live in the spiritual realm. They immediately died as God said they would.

    What is spiritual death?

    Question: "What is spiritual death?"

    Answer:
    Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.

    A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

    To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).



    And here's what eternal life means in Jesus' word. Life in the bible means a relationship with God, knowing Him personally. Adam and Eve actually died as God said they would. The snake deceived Eve twisting God's word by using the Merriam Webster's definition of death.

    John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 10:34 AM
  15. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

    +764
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Because that’s the most plain reading of the text. Also, the Messengers know good and evil.

     
  16. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

    +243
    Messianic
    Single
    "Happy is the man that finds Wisdom, and the man that acquires Understanding.

    She is a tree of life to those who lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retains her." [Proverbs 3:13, & 18]

    Thus Wisdom pertains to the Tree of Life, not the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    Eve saw the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil as being able to make one Wise, thus she lacked בינה Wisdom, Discernment, and Understanding.

    בינה 'Understanding & Discernment' is an attribute of חכמה 'Wisdom' not Knowledge.

    Knowledge of Good and Evil does not equate to the ability of discerning between the two.

    "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that Alôhâyîm created man, in the Likeness of Alôhâyîm made he him;" [Genesis 5:1]

    Adam was already as Alôhâyîm, but became unlike Him when he ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, for Alôhâyîm is immortal, and when Adam ate from the tree he became Mortal.

    "And (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    Neither can they Die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of Alôhâyîm, being the children of the resurrection." [Luke 20:34-36]

    "And (Î)yéhûʷəʰ Alôhâyîm said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" [Genesis 3:22]

    "....the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil...." Which one of us?

    "Now there was a day when the sons of Alôhâyîm came to present themselves before (Î)yéhûʷəʰ, and Satan was also among them." [Job 1:6]

    What is not plain about this? Though the verse may be read in either direction plainly, only one direction reconciles harmonically with other pertinent verses.

    The word אלהים literally pertains to Divine 'Authority' which was bestowed upon Adam when he was given jurisdiction over the earth and it's inhabitants, thus he was already as Alôhâyîm (the Angels).
     
Loading...