Who is ROCOR in communion with now?

[Dietrich Johnson]

I am hearing that ROCOR is in communion with "the Church of Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" as well as "GOC Serbians" and "GOC Romanians", and that ROCOR is not in communion with Traditional Orthodoxy. I had thought that ROCOR was in Communion with the Moscow Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church, but I know the GOC of Greece is not in Communion with the Moscow Patriarch Kirill. Is ROCOR no longer in communion with the ROC or any other traditional orthodox patriarchs? If so, are they still canonical?

 

[ArmyMatt]

ROCOR is under the MP, so they are in communion with everyone that the MP is in communion with and they are canonical.

 

[archer75]

I am hearing that ROCOR is in communion with "the Church of Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" as well as "GOC Serbians" and "GOC Romanians", and that ROCOR is not in communion with Traditional Orthodoxy. I had thought that ROCOR was in Communion with the Moscow Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church, but I know the GOC of Greece is not in Communion with the Moscow Patriarch Kirill. Is ROCOR no longer in communion with the ROC or any other traditional orthodox patriarchs? If so, are they still canonical?

Where did you hear all this?

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

Where did you hear all this?

I heard this from the GOC who said "the GOC has a few million in Communion with Her. This is because She has equals. Four local Churches belong to them; the GOC of Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and ROCOR. They are all independent Churches."

 

[ArmyMatt]

I heard this from the GOC who said "the GOC has a few million in Communion with Her. This is because She has equals. Four local Churches belong to them; the GOC of Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and ROCOR. They are all independent Churches."

yeah, that’s garbage unless there is another group claiming to be ROCOR

 

[prodromos]

yeah, that’s garbage unless there is another group claiming to be ROCOR

Perhaps there were some hardliners who split from ROCOR after they reconciled with the MP. I don't know of any but I haven't really bothered to look for them either.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Perhaps there were some hardliners who split from ROCOR after they reconciled with the MP. I don't know of any but I haven't really bothered to look for them either.

maybe, I know they exist here in the States

 

[tapi]

Before their reconciliation with the MP, ROCOR used to be in communion with the so-called Cyprionite Old Calendarists and other similar groups. This is outdated information.

 

[Not David]

If you want to know which bishop is canonical, I recommend this website:
Bishops | Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America

 

[E.C.]

ROCOR was in Communion with those yahoos before their reconciliation with Moscow.

It is possible that one of the ROCOR offshoots (not everyone supported the reconciliation) retained Communion with those Old Calendarists. Usually those offshoots have names like True ROCOR, ROCOR in Exile, or some such thing. The longer the name, the funkier the history.

 

[searn77]

The ROCOR began to split in the mid-1990s. As a result, there is more than one synod that refers to itself as "ROCOR". From my limited understanding (although I may be incorrect), the fracturing of ROCOR was primarily caused by 1) the way ROCOR was handling/interfering with the catacomb churches in Russia, 2) controversy regarding Metropolitan Vitaly's retirement, and 3) the fact that ROCOR did not make a hard distinction between those in "True Orthodoxy" and "World Orthodoxy."

In 2006, one of the ROCOR synods was headed by Metropolitan Laurus. I believe it was in official communion with three Old Calendarist synods at that time: one in Greece, Romania, and Bulgaria. In 2007, Metropolitan Laurus brought his ROCOR synod into communion with the Moscow Patriarchate and the rest of World Orthodoxy, leaving communion with the Old Calendarist synods. Some in this ROCOR synod did not follow Metropolitan Laurus, chose to remain in communion with the Old Calendarist synods, and elected Bishop Agafangel of Odessa as the ROCOR Metropolitan and First Hierarch. As a result, you had one ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Laurus (it's now under Metropolitan Hilarion) in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, and one ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Agafangel in communion with those three Old Calendarist synods (and I believe they're currently in communion with more Old Calendarist synods than in 2006).

Dietrich, the ROCOR synod you read about that's in communion with "the Church of Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" is the ROCOR under Metropolitan Agafangel.

 

[The Liturgist]

yeah, that’s garbage unless there is another group claiming to be ROCOR

They do exist. I accidentally stumbled into one once under Metropolitan Agafangel.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They do exist. I accidentally stumbled into one once under Metropolitan Agafangel.

gotcha

 

[E.C.]

The ROCOR began to split in the mid-1990s. As a result, there is more than one synod that refers to itself as "ROCOR". From my limited understanding (although I may be incorrect), the fracturing of ROCOR was primarily caused by 1) the way ROCOR was handling/interfering with the catacomb churches in Russia, 2) controversy regarding Metropolitan Vitaly's retirement, and 3) the fact that ROCOR did not make a hard distinction between those in "True Orthodoxy" and "World Orthodoxy."

In 2006, one of the ROCOR synods was headed by Metropolitan Laurus. I believe it was in official communion with three Old Calendarist synods at that time: one in Greece, Romania, and Bulgaria. In 2007, Metropolitan Laurus brought his ROCOR synod into communion with the Moscow Patriarchate and the rest of World Orthodoxy, leaving communion with the Old Calendarist synods. Some in this ROCOR synod did not follow Metropolitan Laurus, chose to remain in communion with the Old Calendarist synods, and elected Bishop Agafangel of Odessa as the ROCOR Metropolitan and First Hierarch. As a result, you had one ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Laurus (it's now under Metropolitan Hilarion) in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, and one ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Agafangel in communion with those three Old Calendarist synods (and I believe they're currently in communion with more Old Calendarist synods than in 2006).

Dietrich, the ROCOR synod you read about that's in communion with "the Church of Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" is the ROCOR under Metropolitan Agafangel.

I had heard of the first two, but not the third factor. There were also some ex-ROCOR entities that went into schism because Moscow, in their eyes, didn't fulfill their part of the deal to satisfaction. One of which was the accusation that some Soviet era clergy were actually KGB agents and another factor were things that are just out of the Church's hands such as the restoration of the monarchy.

I think there was even a ROCOR schism in 2001 when they just merely floated the idea of reunification with Moscow. I forget what group that became. With Vitaly, that became "ROCOR-V" I believe. The one under "Agafangel" I think calls itself like the "Provisional Supreme Church Authority" or something stupid like that and was made up of the ROCOR parishes within the former Soviet Union who did not want to reunite with Moscow, but were mostly parishes in Ukraine.

It has to be said that former Bishop Agafangel was suspended by ROCOR for schismatic activities in 2007. He was later deposed in 2009 per this: The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia - Official Website

 

[searn77]

To better explain my third factor, I meant that ROCOR had a mixed relationship with the Old Calendarists and with World Orthodoxy. It was ROCOR who helped reestablish a hierarchy for the Old Calendarists in Greece. ROCOR concelebrated with Old Calendarists before ROCOR began splitting in the 1990s. It also concelebrated with those in World Orthodoxy and gave communion to New Calendarists. Some ROCOR bishops felt more aligned with World Orthodoxy. Other bishops in ROCOR felt more aligned with True Orthodoxy. And still others in ROCOR sought to be above the jurisdictional politics, seeing the good and bad in both World Orthodoxy and True Orthodoxy. You'll find articles of Fr. Seraphim Rose's "The Orthodox Word" that promoted different figures among the Old Calendarists as well as figures among World Orthodox.

Some bishops in ROCOR weren't comfortable with this middle way, and from what I gather, this is one of the contributing factors that led to the eventual splitting of ROCOR.

 

[searn77]

In regards to your last part about Metropolitan Agafangel being suspended and deposed in 2009, this was two years after the split had already occurred. At that point, ROCOR under Metropolitan Agafangel (ROCOR-A) viewed those in ROCOR who joined the Moscow Patriarchate (ROCOR-MP) as having departed ROCOR, and vice versa. So at that point, ROCOR-A didn't recognize the synodal decisions of ROCOR-MP such as the deposition that you mentioned, and ROCOR-MP didn't recognize the synodal decisions of ROCOR-A.

 

[Max Carvalho]

As mentioned, either you were referring to ROCOR in the past (60s or 70s, even 90s if we are talking about a different TO group), or you are talking about (most likely), ROCA-A, meaning Russian Orthodox Church Abroad under Met. Agafangel, the splinter group that came about right after the reunification, rejecting it. Indeed they are in communion with the GOC-K (genuine orthodox under Kallinikos, the largest old calendarist group in Greece), the old calendarists of Romania and Bulgaria, and I believe the ones in Serbia too, comprising, by far and large, the biggest old calendarist communion.

 

[Max Carvalho]

In regards to your last part about Metropolitan Agafangel being suspended and deposed in 2009, this was two years after the split had already occurred. At that point, ROCOR under Metropolitan Agafangel (ROCOR-A) viewed those in ROCOR who joined the Moscow Patriarchate (ROCOR-MP) as having departed ROCOR, and vice versa. So at that point, ROCOR-A didn't recognize the synodal decisions of ROCOR-MP such as the deposition that you mentioned, and ROCOR-MP didn't recognize the synodal decisions of ROCOR-A.

Out of curiosity, may I ask which synod are you a member of?

 

[searn77]

Yes, I am in the the Russian True Orthodox Church - Moscow Metropolia under Metropolitan Alexy.