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Who is really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by BABerean2, Jun 15, 2022.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?

    (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)

    The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?

    1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)

    2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?

    3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?

    4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?

    5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?

    6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?

    7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?

    8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)

    9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?

    10. Watch the YouTube video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.

    Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:

    “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

    Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

    John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

    "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

    John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


    Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)

    What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

    Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?

    Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?

    Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?

    Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?
  2. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    The only visible replacement that I can see occurs when telling a Jew they must abandon and replace all their traditions with gentile Christian ones.
  3. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

    Czech Republic
    Well, for the start, the church fathers teach it. Also almost all known reformers.
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Hi the covenant with Noah is not the covenant with Moses. The covenant with Abraham is not the covenant with Moses either. The prophecy of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent is about Jesus and this same seed has genealogy leading to Abraham where two other promises are made regarding this seed. In this seed all the nations will be blessed and this seed of Abraham would be a great nation with specific boundaries inside the land of Canaan. There are many other reiterations of these ideas where greater details are given. The New Testament says in Luke on that Jesus will be a horn of salvation for the house of Jacob. The Jesus will keep all the prophecies, covenants, oath and promises to deliver Israel from its enemies and all that hate them to enter a time of serving the LORD without fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives.
    The hermeneutics of all the passages about Jesus coming the 1st time proved to be quite literal and dispensational view these promises, covenants, oaths and promises with the same lens that Isaiah 53, psalm 22 and all the rest with a literal lens. With this lens the scripture themselves can be searched and a comprehensive list of what is expected can be established that actually has national Israel saved at the 2nd coming which would at the very time the kingdom comes and in fact Zech 14 shows the LORD both becoming king over all the earth on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun by enemies and the LORD comes with His saints and the invaders are melted. In this day the LORD is king over all the earth and the nations which are left must now come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. That Mt of Olives is to split in two on the very same day and create a new river and valley with the waters which will flow year round will go into the Dead Sea and heal it. Eze 47 shows the Dead Sea healed on the day that the 12 tribes gain their inheritance.

    You replace your hermeneutic to support your view where the literal sense still makes sense.
    In Jer 31 immediately after the promise of the new covenant the LORD goes out of His way in emphatically state that Israel will not cease to be nation in Gods eyes nor will he cast off their seed for
    all they have done. Then he states the city Jerusalem will be rebuilt at at time when the valleys are full of dead bodies and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. Those dead bodies will be there as in Zech 14 and Rev Armageddon scenario. God anticipates the 1800 year diaspora which is associated being high next to the introduction of the new covenant. Jesus knew Jerusalem and the temple were toast so this assurance is important to see the connection.

    Jesus gave a bible study to the two disciples on the road and when this is all said and done the Bible study will state all the promises, covenants, oaths, and prophecies that will be literally fulfilled.
  5. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    In Relationship
    Supersentionism does not have to be understood as a replacement. It should be understood as a fulfillment.
  6. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    Supersentionism should be understood as heresy. Luke one says God is going to keep all the promises covenant and oaths to deliver the house of Jacob. (the house of Jacob is not the church) . Futurism sees exactly this coming. God says Israel will not cease to be a nation and He will not cast them off for all they have done right after promising the new covenant. This promise is linked to the time of Jacob's trouble which is in Chapter 30 and 31 notes at that same time and goes all the way forward to a time when the valleys are filled with dead bodies and the city Jerusalem is being rebuilt yet again. This time of rebuilding with dead bodies in the valleys is not the time of Ezra, Nehemiah and is not the new Jerusalem either. These dead bodies will be there after Armageddon and Zech 14 and indeed the city will need to be rebuilt.

    there are hundreds of specific passages that taken literally hold together in a single narrative with the method of interpretation being to just believe it will happen as written. This is compared to putting on the special new covenant glasses that allegorize the same passages. In Zech 14 nothing about the chapter is allegorical and it is all about a normal 24 hour day. The city Jerusalem is being overrun with the detail half the city taken captive. The LORD comes and melts those invaders. The Mt of Olives splits in two and the new river flows with two branches and one going east. the New Valley is formed with specific boundaries. The LORD is now king over all the earth. In that day they will say the LORD is one. Now the nations that are left have to come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This is clearly the 2nd coming and transition into the millennium. In Eze 47 this river heals the Dead Sea and the 12 tribes receive their inheritance in the land. All these passages are related and future. you can go through Ezekiel 36 onward and it is all latter day prophecies to those who have returned to the mountains of Israel long since desolate.

    I understand that the new covenant in truly in place and there really is a spiritual Israel made up of all the saved. These truths do not cancel the promises covenants and oaths that are still on the books. This is glorious that just like Jospeh being revealed to his brothers Jesus will be revealed to the house of Jacob and Israel gets that new heart promised in the new covenant at this time as the LORD says they will get a new heart in the day He removes the reproach of the nations from them. He also notes these who get this new heart have been gathered back to the mountains of Israel not for their sake but the the LORDS names sake and He will be hallowed in then at this time. I you cannot see this you are missing the resolution of the plot lines of the book.
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    New Covenant Whole Gospel:

    Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.

    He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14.

    Awaken Church to this truth.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by

    husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.

    Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)

    Watch the YouTube video “The New Covenant” by Bob George.

  8. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    In Relationship
    Well I guess there are some who do not think Jesus Christ of Nazareth IS that fulfilled Covenental promise.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  9. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    hi there has never been anyone saved apart from the new covenant and righteous like Abraham was always achieved through faith like Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. In Rev 5 all the souls in heaven exclaim they have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. This is key to understanding as Jesus taught that in the grave was Abraham and Lazarus in the earth in a place of comfort and a gulf was between them and those in torment. You see Abraham is a new covenant saint and the righteous saints were waiting for Jesus to exclaim It is finished and redemption was paid for and atonement achieved so no one was saved apart from the new covenant. Israel rejected the new covenant and you show the glorious passages that show forgiveness is achieved and the laws are written on the hearts and minds of those who receive it. The new covenant was brought in by Jesus and rejected by the house of Jacob. The prophecies show that the house Jacob which is regathered to the mountains of Israel which have long been desolate receive this same heart promised in Jer 31. In Hosea in the latter days it says that not my people shall become children of the living God. When you explain your position you ignore the connection I try to establish of Luke 1 Zech 14 that show the deliverance of Jacobs house exactly as Luke says by Jesus and from then on it is different.

    If the LORD reigns now why is it like the days of Sodom and Lot now/. If Rev is fulfilled why is a world government being pushed and a cashless society planned as well and why is hyperinflation a global threat to drive global prices to a days wage for a quart of wheat? Wars rumors of wars famines d pesitilence are over with when the LORD is king over all the earth. The interpretive lens of scripture takes all scripture literally. The passages in Zech 14 are just as literal as Isaiah 53 and psalm 22 Jesus road in on the foal of donkey and was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and the money was given to the potter. Zech `14 Jerusalem will be overrun the mt of Olives will split in two and the LORD will be king over all the earth. In Rev the kingdoms of this earth become the kigndom's of our God and his Christ and he will rule forever. This happens at Armageddon
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    I never said the Book of Revelation is already fulfilled.

    The New Covenant was not fulfilled until Calvary, based on what is written in the New Testament below. It could only be fulfilled (cut) through the shedding of blood. It was promised all the way back at Genesis 3:15, but was not fulfilled until the first century.

    Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


    Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    Many have caused great confusion by interpreting the New Testament through their personal interpretation of the Old Testament. Zechariah 14 is just one example. Compare the change in lighting and the living waters in Zechariah 14 to what is found in Revelation chapter 21 and 22.


    Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order )

    Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
    Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
    Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
    The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

    He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

    The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

    The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

    He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

    He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

    Chapter 20?
    Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?
    (The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
    There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
    Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?
    Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.
    Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

    The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.

  11. ElenaMaria_9

    ElenaMaria_9 Member

    United Kingdom

    I don't know much about this but if the Jews aren't still a nation then who are the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelations?
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    In Revelation 1:20 Jesus said the word "stars" is a symbol of the angels in the Book of Revelation. He also said "candlesticks" is a symbol of the churches.

    Therefore, we know the book is full of symbolic language. The Northern tribes were taken into captivity and their DNA was dispersed among the Gentiles hundreds of years before the time of Christ. Therefore, their pure bloodlines no longer exist. Almost anyone of European or Asian ancestry could have some of their DNA at this time. The Wooly Mammoth is now extinct, but other modern elephants still have almost the same DNA. Paul warned us against using "genealogies" in our faith in Titus 3:9.

    Therefore, the 144,000, with exactly 12,000 from each of the ancient tribes is being used in a symbolic manner in the Book of Revelation. Why did James address his letter to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below? Was James including the Gentiles?

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
    Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

  13. ralliann

    ralliann christian

    United States
    Yes, and the most basic way I know to explain it is this..
    I think there is a division between the promise made to Abraham, and that made to Jacob! AKA Scripture does not agree with scripture.

    Scripture agrees with scripture... Abraham, Isaac, Jacob all heirs of the same promise.

    Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    Joseph becomes the firstborn:
    of Ephraim and menasseh
    Blessing of Israel upon Joseph...
    Notice the names!!!!
    bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
    17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
    ****Menasseh to become a great people
    19 a) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great:
    ****Ephraim (firstborn) Greater, his seed will become a multitude of nations
    19 b) but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

    Multitude Hebrew 04393 (see below) of nations 01471 Aka Gentiels
    04393 מלא mᵉlo’ mel-o’ rarely מלוא mᵉlow’ mel-o’ or מלו mᵉlow (#Eze 41:8), mel-o’

    from 04390; n m; [BDB-571a] {See TWOT on 1195 @@ "1195b"}

    AV-full 12, fulness 8, all that is therein 7, all 2, fill 2, handful 2, multitude 2, handful + 07062 1, handfuls + 02651 1; 37

    1) fulness, that which fills
    1a) fulness, handful
    1b) mass, multitude
    1c) fulness, that which fills, entire contents
    1d) full length, full line

    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Separating Jacob from the same promises with Abraham, is the problem here IMO.
    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
    It is its own form of replacement theology. Replacing the Abrahamic covenant promises and inheritance, with The sinai covenant and inheritance.
    We know When the kingdom divided, Epraim was called ISREAL. The Israel that was from Israel, firstborn of Joseph.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    The words of Christ below reveal when the times of the Gentiles comes to "fullness".

    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    Based on the text above, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the Second Coming of Christ.

  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

    United States
    I agree. It began with the new covenant, and will continue until it is complete.
    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
  16. john the youngest

    john the youngest New Member

    United States
    "Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb."
    Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?"

    People hide from Jesus all the time, I see it today too.

    Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    A different question might be, how/why does wrath and Lamb go together.
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Paul explains below how wrath and the Lamb go together when He returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel.

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  18. john the youngest

    john the youngest New Member

    United States

    What is there to obey in the gospel, isn't it a free gift?

    "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."
    Is Jesus contradicting himself when he said "forgive them Father for they know not what they do?", and didn't?

    "15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,"
    Give an example of weapon make and manufacturer of swords that are wielded in the mouth or other explanation.

    Matthew 12:20 20 a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory;
    Has God changed the plan?

    2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
    Is God now working worldly sorrow?

    1 John 4:19 We love God, because he first loved us.
    Does the Bible say anything about the Lamb of God being about God's love? verse?

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
    Does the Lamb not now take away the sin of the world?

    Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    How come where Jesus actual comes back, the reaction is to mourn the one they pierced, not duck from a sword?

    I included a lot of verses about the Lamb of God, because Jesus Christ is portrayed many different ways, but your verses aren't about a Lamb. So do you have any verses that portray a Lamb as a very fierce animal or an attack machine, The Lamb of God as being anything other than a lamb, or any reason you believe that the wraith of the Lamb (not normally feared when talking about farm animals fyi), is the actual wraith of God, or just men saying it, who could be wrong as in many places they were afraid and had no reason to be. Also, can stars literally fall to earth in that passage of Revelation 6:12-17?
  19. john the youngest

    john the youngest New Member

    United States
    "He returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance"

    In context of the passage and other similar verses, this flaming fire and everlasting destruction seems to be hell, Jesus isn't on earth, but revealed in heaven, and with his messengers (or angels as also translated".

    In this passage (Revelation 6:12-17), I can still the gospel message, because people are afraid of rejecting Jesus and going to hell, and they should be. Hell already exists, and people already act that way - fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. They have for 2,000 years, ever since the gospel became known and who Jesus Christ is.

    The other way presented, He returns in flaming fire (sic that wasn't quit right, the passage didn't say return, but revealed - not same words), makes this a future event. People go to hell today. Also, it's everlasting, not limited time, and it's pictured as in heaven (or hell as it is). Read this second way (I'd guess a non gospel, future event way), Revelation 6:12-17 would contradicts a lot of the rest of Revelation.
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    The gift is free, but the Holy Spirit is the master teacher that comes with it if a person is truly "born-again" of the Spirit of God. True believers are not "secret agents", as revealed by the passage below.

    1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


    Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says?

    What did Peter say below?

    Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?

    Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

    Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

    Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    “baptize” KJV

    Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

    Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.