Who is "National Israel"?

Timtofly

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Why does this modern generation, get a crack at a thousand years of bliss?
When a hundred generations of Jews or more, miss out?
One received Paradise and glorified bodies a full son of God.

The other eternal life and an incorruptible body, but not a full son of God.
 
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klutedavid

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Ezekiel 38, the Jews return in the latter days, latter years.
We are not talking about the unbelieving, theocratic, nation of Israel, as in the first century.

Ezekiel 38-14

“Therefore prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “On that day when My people Israel are living securely, will you not know it?


Could modern, secular Israel, be called ‘My people’. I don’t think so.
 
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klutedavid

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One received Paradise and glorified bodies a full son of God.

The other eternal life and an incorruptible body, but not a full son of God.
Are you referring to the modern, secular Jews?

Are you referring to spiritual Jews?
 
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keras

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I have given you the scripture in Romans 11. You just don't want to accept them.

That is fine, but please don't say "Nowhere does the Bible say"
Romans 11:26 does not specify modern secular Israel.
It is illogical and contrary to Bible teachings, to assume it does.

Remember that the Jews represent only 2 of the 12 tribes.
The Israel Paul refers to is ALL Israel.
Ezekiel 38, the Jews return in the latter days, latter years.
Glad you mentioned Ezekiel.
Read carefully Ezekiel 20:34-38 and see just how many of the Israelis will qualify to return to the holy Land.
Jeremiah 12:14 says the current inhabitants of all the Middle East countries will be removed and only the righteous Christian will be allowed to go back. Isaiah 35:1-10
 
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keras

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You mean to say its illogical in your opinion?
To think the Israel in Romans 11:26 is the mixed race people who are citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, is illogical and does conflict with Bible teaching.
Don't you realize that anyone can call themselves whatever they like?
Just because the Israelis have usurped that name, in no way means they are the only Israel.

Your main 'proof' is Romans 11:28...they are dear to Him for the sake of the Patriarchs.
Firstly, it is provable from the historical record, that most of the 'Jews' today are descended from peoples who converted to Judaism, not by descent from Judah, or Jacob.
Secondly; Even the few who may be actual descendants of Judah and Benjamin, the represent only 2/12ths of all Israel. Where are the other 10 tribes? Scattered around the world, as they were prophesied to be.

Time for you to face some real facts: The Jews are NOT the people of God. Jesus said who they belong to. Revelation 2:9
Jesus came to save the Lost House of Israel, Matthew 15:24. He was successful and we Christians are the result.

THIS is the amazing Plan of God, to choose a people, settle them in the holy Land, then as they rebelled against Him, to separate them into two Houses and scatter them among the nations.
Judah has come back from their exile, but remains in rebellion.
The true Israel, now all the Christian peoples, but who are mainly actual descendants of Jacob, await the soon to happen; clearance of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:1-18
Then Israel and Judah will be brought to a place in the wilderness and passed under the rod of Judgment. Ezekiel 20:34-38
Only the righteous, faithful Christian believers will be allowed to enter the holy Land. John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.
 
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Timtofly

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Are you referring to the modern, secular Jews?

Are you referring to spiritual Jews?
The only Jews alive today are not just in Israel. Why would I point to just one group of Israelites? Neither specifically, but some alive today in Israel are in fact Israelites. Not because they are citizens of a country. Does Scripture any where address ethnicity or citizens of a modern country?

The fact the Second Coming could still happen this year, certainly cannot exclude people alive in Israel today, despite the argument of who is who.

If the 6th Seal ends a war, and ground zero happens to be Jerusalem, and people are still alive in Jerusalem, they will be ethnic Jews, no? The church is gone, so none of them will be spiritual Jews. They will be crying out in fear waiting for God's wrath, with all the others, while realizing at the same time Christ is the Lamb, their 1st century fathers hung on a Cross.

National Israel today is not necessarily the Nation of the Millennium. Same people, but not a self government. Christ Himself will rule in Jerusalem for 1000 years. All will die to shed Adam's flesh and blood, and then resurrected in Revelation 20:4 to start the Millennium.

Death is certain for all humanity as the 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's 6000 years of sinful flesh and blood. No humans alive today, except the 144k will just live and endure "to the end". The 144k are changed when sealed. All the rest will suffer death and then judgment, and only then be given incorruptible bodies.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You mean to say its illogical in your opinion?

I notice that you duck around a lot of posts here that forbid your theology. That does not advance your beliefs but rather expose them.
 
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Guojing

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I notice that you duck around a lot of posts here that forbid your theology. That does not advance your beliefs but rather expose them.

No, I was just trying to establish to him that all of us are sharing our opinions on scripture here.

Don't pass off your opinions as facts, that's all.
 
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BABerean2

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No, I was just trying to establish to him that all of us are sharing our opinions on scripture here.

Don't pass off your opinions as facts, that's all.


If the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6 is only an "opinion", the Bible means nothing.


How long have you been a preacher of Dispensational Theology?


.
 
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Guojing

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If the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6 is only an "opinion", the Bible means nothing.


How long have you been a preacher of Dispensational Theology?


.

Whether we are also the House of Judah and the House of Israel certainly is.
 
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BABerean2

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Whether we are also the House of Judah and the House of Israel certainly is.


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Either James is confused above, or you are confused.


.
 
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Guojing

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Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Either James is confused above, or you are confused.


.

he is addressing Israel there
 
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BABerean2

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he is addressing Israel there


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


.
 
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FredVB

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Who is "National Israel"? I've seen this term used in these boards as though "National Israel" refers to the genetic descendants of Abraham only, ie "the Jews" only.

Deuteronomy 14:2 says,

"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a peculiar people to Himself, above all the nations that are on the earth."

It was talking to all 12 tribes of Israel. It was spoken long after Jacob (Israel) when on his death-bed, told his son Joseph the following regarding Joseph's son, Ephraim:

"And Joseph's father, Jacob, refused and said, I know, my son, I know. Manasseh also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother Ephraim shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become (Hebrew: melo goy: "the fullness of the Gentiles", translated correctly into English as "a multitude of nations.") (Gen 48:19).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Israel was split into a Northern kingdom (the house of Israel) consisting of 10 tribes, and a Southern kingdom (the house of Judah) consisting of Judah (the Jews) and Benjamin. It was long before God, through the prophets, began collectively calling the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom "Ephraim".

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before God told Hosea to prophesy regarding the house of Israel,

"For you are not My people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."
(Hosea 1:9-11).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the 10 Northern tribes were exiled from their land and scattered among the nations, long before the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they were scattered, to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today.

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Jeremiah prophesied that God would cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah that would not be like the covenant He cut with them during the days of Moses (Jeremiah 31:31).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the apostle Paul took the above prophecy mentioned in Hosea, which refers to the house of Israel and not to the Jews, and applied it to Gentiles who believe in Jesus":

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles?
As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken to the 12 tribes of Israel long before the time which we read of in the gospels, when the chief priests and pharisees heard Jesus' parable of the wicked vinedressers (at the time the Lord told them that the kingdom would be taken from them), when the chief priests and the pharisees, hearing the Lord's parable, "understood that Jesus spoke of them" (Matthew 21:45).

We must remember that the chief priests and pharisees were the vinedressers in the parable (Matthew 21:33-45). The Lord could not have been speaking of all the Jews - because not only were the apostles all Jews, but the apostle who was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, was a Jew (Peter). (Matthew 16:19).

Matthew 21:33-45 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was addressing the chief priests and pharisees when he said the kingdom would be taken from them, and the chief priests and pharisees understood by the parable of the wicked vinedressers that Jesus spoke of them.

So there has always been only one nation called Israel, the Gentiles who beieve in Jesus are part of it, and God considers them "the house of Israel", whereas the Jews who believe in Jesus are "the house of Judah".

The prophecy in Hosea refers to the house of Israel, NOT to the Jews.

THERE HAS THEREFORE ALWAYS BEEN ONLY ONE NATION BUT THERE IS A NEW TEMPLE, WHICH IS ALSO THE CHURCH

Timtofly said:
The only Jews alive today are not just in Israel. Why would I point to just one group of Israelites? Neither specifically, but some alive today in Israel are in fact Israelites. Not because they are citizens of a country. Does Scripture any where address ethnicity or citizens of a modern country?

The fact the Second Coming could still happen this year, certainly cannot exclude people alive in Israel today, despite the argument of who is who.

If the 6th Seal ends a war, and ground zero happens to be Jerusalem, and people are still alive in Jerusalem, they will be ethnic Jews, no? The church is gone, so none of them will be spiritual Jews. They will be crying out in fear waiting for God's wrath, with all the others, while realizing at the same time Christ is the Lamb, their 1st century fathers hung on a Cross.

National Israel today is not necessarily the Nation of the Millennium. Same people, but not a self government. Christ Himself will rule in Jerusalem for 1000 years. All will die to shed Adam's flesh and blood, and then resurrected in Revelation 20:4 to start the Millennium.

Death is certain for all humanity as the 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's 6000 years of sinful flesh and blood. No humans alive today, except the 144k will just live and endure "to the end". The 144k are changed when sealed. All the rest will suffer death and then judgment, and only then be given incorruptible bodies.

Why would Israel mean something other than what Hosea, and those first hearing him, and the early generations following, understood the term to mean. That there is spiritual Israel meaning something further does not take away what was understood then for the descendants of those ones.

The twelve tribes were present in the kingdom of Judah, not all from the other tribes remained in the northern kingdom. Some fron those scattered also returned to be among the scattered Jews later.

Paul wrote of wanting others of his own people, those of Israel, to come to salvation in Christ, their actual Messiah. It would be fulfilled in a remnant later.

The second coming of Christ will be at the time of judgment on those of the world for their wickedness and destructiveness in this world of God's creation. The tribulation will precede that, and there will be development of troubles in the world even before that, which those of us who are believers will yet be here for, while we should stop being involved in the destructiveness and sins, before ever being taken up from the world before the time of the coming judgment in this world.

And God keeps promises as they were originally heard.
 
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Timtofly

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Why would Israel mean something other than what Hosea, and those first hearing him, and the early generations following, understood the term to mean. That there is spiritual Israel meaning something further does not take away what was understood then for the descendants of those ones.

The twelve tribes were present in the kingdom of Judah, not all from the other tribes remained in the northern kingdom. Some fron those scattered also returned to be among the scattered Jews later.

Paul wrote of wanting others of his own people, those of Israel, to come to salvation in Christ, their actual Messiah. It would be fulfilled in a remnant later.

The second coming of Christ will be at the time of judgment on those of the world for their wickedness and destructiveness in this world of God's creation. The tribulation will precede that, and there will be development of troubles in the world even before that, which those of us who are believers will yet be here for, while we should stop being involved in the destructiveness and sins, before ever being taken up from the world before the time of the coming judgment in this world.

And God keeps promises as they were originally heard.
God’s judgments are specific, not some general overall phenomenon.
 
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FredVB

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FredVB said:
Why would Israel mean something other than what Hosea, and those first hearing him, and the early generations following, understood the term to mean? That there is spiritual Israel meaning something further does not take away what was understood then for the descendants of those ones.

The twelve tribes were present in the kingdom of Judah, not all from the other tribes remained in the northern kingdom. Some from those scattered also returned to be among the scattered Jews later.

Paul wrote of wanting others of his own people, those of Israel, to come to salvation in Christ, their actual Messiah. It would be fulfilled in a remnant later.

The second coming of Christ will be at the time of judgment on those of the world for their wickedness and destructiveness in this world of God's creation. The tribulation will precede that, and there will be development of troubles in the world even before that, which those of us who are believers will yet be here for, while we should stop being involved in the destructiveness and sins, before ever being taken up from the world before the time of the coming judgment in this world.

And God keeps promises as they were originally heard.

Timtofly said:
God’s judgments are specific, not some general overall phenomenon.

Why would you answer with that?

Certainly Yahweh God's judgments are fair for any individuals. The Bible shows prophetically that there are collective acts of judgment on all the unrepenting in this world for their collective wickedness and their destructiveness in this world. Those who were worse will see the further consequence to them fairly. Everything from God will be fair, including the eternal consequence.
 
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Timtofly

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Why would you answer with that?

Certainly Yahweh God's judgments are fair for any individuals. The Bible shows prophetically that there are collective acts of judgment on all the unrepenting in this world for their collective wickedness and their destructiveness in this world. Those who were worse will see the further consequence to them fairly. Everything from God will be fair, including the eternal consequence.
Because the final harvest is not just about judgment. It is about the end of Adam's sinful flesh and blood. God does not just let us stay here because we want to or should stay here. The church is taken out first, because she has the least to say about how things go. The problem is that the final harvest is viewed as just every other tribulation of the last 1990 years. That is not the case. We are enduring right now. We will not endure the final harvest.

Only those who literally reject God and follow Satan will prevail until the very end. That is the reason the judgments are presented as specific in the book of Revelation. That is why endurance of the saints has been throughout the last 1990 years, and has nothing to do with the trouble at the end, after the Second Coming has already happened.
 
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FredVB

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FredVB said:
Why would you answer with that?

Certainly Yahweh God's judgments are fair for any individuals. The Bible shows prophetically that there are collective acts of judgment on all the unrepenting in this world for their collective wickedness and their destructiveness in this world. Those who were worse will see the further consequence to them fairly. Everything from God will be fair, including the eternal consequence.

Timtofly said:
Because the final harvest is not just about judgment. It is about the end of Adam's sinful flesh and blood. God does not just let us stay here because we want to or should stay here. The church is taken out first, because she has the least to say about how things go. The problem is that the final harvest is viewed as just every other tribulation of the last 1990 years. That is not the case. We are enduring right now. We will not endure the final harvest.

Only those who literally reject God and follow Satan will prevail until the very end. That is the reason the judgments are presented as specific in the book of Revelation. That is why endurance of the saints has been throughout the last 1990 years, and has nothing to do with the trouble at the end, after the Second Coming has already happened.

That might possibly be considered with an amillenial position. Yet prophecies that never had fulfillment wait, and would be fulfilled in the coming millenium under Christ, from Jerusalem the City of Peace. The world which is ruined under civilization from humanity without God needs to be restored, and humanity involved with that destructiveness is not just off the hook. There will be work involved in the restoration, that will never happen from humanity with its civilization without Christ returning for it all to go in that direction. When Christ returns he will reign and there will still be fallen humanity here with the need to come to Christ and being made right, there will be all the testimony for that from God's people, the fulfilled role for those of Israel with Christ reigning from Jerusalem, that so many submit to Christ from the heart. Still it is clear that there will be those who won't even then.

You are really missing perhaps willingly our part in destructiveness which leads to troubles which we yet will be seeing. We will see when we open our eyes to what is showing so far for that.
 
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Timtofly

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You are really missing perhaps willingly our part in destructiveness which leads to troubles which we yet will be seeing. We will see when we open our eyes to what is showing so far for that.
The return of Christ is prior to restoration. All humanity will die, during this Second Coming event, then the millennium reign. Does amil mean after the church age is finished? Do they accept another 1000 years of life without sin?
 
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