Who Is Israel In 2018?

[northwye]

Who Is Israel In 2018?

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

J. Dwight Pentecost in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament." (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

The dispensationalists appear to define what they mean by Israel as being those having the Chosen People DNA from Abraham.

Paul in Romans 11: 26 and in Galatians 6: 16 can be interpreted as implying that Israel can be defined by belief in Jesus Christ and in the Gospel of Christ.

"And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith."

John Calvin says "I extend the word Israel to all the people of God,"

So, defining Israel according to the Chosen Genetics doctrine is a starting postulate of dispensationalism.

But who, for the dispensationalists, is Israel now in 2018?

I do not remember seeing a discussion of this question on the Internet.

Are dispensationalists calling what is now Talmudic Judaism Israel? Are the dispensationalists surrogates for Talmudic Judaism?

If Israel is an eternal kingdom, as Chafer says, then does Israel exist at all times, or does Israel not exist for a period of time and then come back into existence at some time in the future? Some of the dispensationalists might believe this, that Israel is to come back into existence in the future at the millennium, which is to be a Jewish dispensation.

"The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan." Some dispensationalists may think that Israel does exist now.

But again, the dispensationalist theology is not real clear about this.

And also different dispensationalists hold different views on whether the New Covenant is in place now, in the so called church, in this age of grace,

Lewis S. Chafer and John Walvord have said that in the Gospels and in Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 10:29 and 13:20 the New Covenant is with the church;. For Chafer and Walvord Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:16 would refer to the New Covenant with the Chosen Genetics People called Israel.

Chaffer is quoted as saying, "There remains to be recognized a heavenly covenant for the heavenly people, which is also styled like the preceding one for Israel a "new covenant." It is made in the blood of Christ and continues in effect throughout this age, whereas the new covenant made with Israel happens to be future in its application." Chafer and Walvord, like many dispensationalists, are making distinctons and adding doctrines not in scripture.

C.I. Scofield, according to David B. Curtis, taught that the New Covenant spiritually in some sense applies to the church in this age, but it will be applied more literally and more fully to Israel in the future millennium Kingdom.

Other dispensationalists say that the New Covenant is not in place now for the church, but is only for Israel and in the future sometime the New Covenant will be made with Israel, since this is what Jeremiah 31: 31-33 literally says.

 

[dreadnought]

My suspicion has come to be that the Lord uses Israel as an example to the rest of the world.

 

[northwye]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23: 37-38

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." Daniel 9: 26

How Daniel 9 Anticipates the Destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70

"The prophecy in Daniel 9:26 fits only one disaster in Jewish history after the nation returned from captivity in Babylon, and that disaster was the war which engulfed the Jews in A.D. 66-73, about forty years after the death of Jesus."

https://jewsforjesus.org/publicatio...c-time-table-according-to-daniel-the-prophet/

"...the people responsible for this deed were the Romans, and Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in year 70 C. E. Based upon this verse, it is also clear that the Messiah should have both come and died prior to the year 70 C.E." The deed in Daniel 9: 26 was the cutting off of the Messiah.

"In keepinng with Daniel 9:24, he died for the purpose of making an atonement for sins. Three days after his death, he was resurrected."

But what does Daniel 9: 26-27 say about Israel?
In Daniel 9: 26 the sanctuary, or temple in Jerusalem is to be destroyed. Daniel 9: 27 mentions that "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." The Messiah is to cause the sacrifice to cease. Some claim that the "he" here is the anti-Christ. But Hebrews 8: 6-7 says "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

And Hebrews 9: 11-15 says "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Then Hebrews 8: 13 concludes that "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 10: 9 says "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Matthew 24: 1-2

In all these texts the Temple of the Old Covenant system was destroyed. the sacrifice was done away with, implying the animal sacrifices were ceased, the old Covenant system became desolate, as Christ says in Matthew 23: 38 - "...your house is left unto you desolate - and the Old Covenant was replaced by a New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

 

[Truth7t7]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23: 37-38

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." Daniel 9: 26

How Daniel 9 Anticipates the Destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70

"The prophecy in Daniel 9:26 fits only one disaster in Jewish history after the nation returned from captivity in Babylon, and that disaster was the war which engulfed the Jews in A.D. 66-73, about forty years after the death of Jesus."

The Messianic Time Table According to Daniel the Prophet - Jews for Jesus

"...the people responsible for this deed were the Romans, and Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in year 70 C. E. Based upon this verse, it is also clear that the Messiah should have both come and died prior to the year 70 C.E." The deed in Daniel 9: 26 was the cutting off of the Messiah.

"In keepinng with Daniel 9:24, he died for the purpose of making an atonement for sins. Three days after his death, he was resurrected."

But what does Daniel 9: 26-27 say about Israel?
In Daniel 9: 26 the sanctuary, or temple in Jerusalem is to be destroyed. Daniel 9: 27 mentions that "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." The Messiah is to cause the sacrifice to cease. Some claim that the "he" here is the anti-Christ. But Hebrews 8: 6-7 says "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

And Hebrews 9: 11-15 says "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Then Hebrews 8: 13 concludes that "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 10: 9 says "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Matthew 24: 1-2

In all these texts the Temple of the Old Covenant system was destroyed. the sacrifice was done away with, implying the animal sacrifices were ceased, the old Covenant system became desolate, as Christ says in Matthew 23: 38 - "...your house is left unto you desolate - and the Old Covenant was replaced by a New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

No Daniel 9:24-27 wasn't fulfilled in 70AD, the antichrist and abomination of desolation seen in Daniel 9:27 is a future event.

 

[northwye]

King James Daniel 9: 24-27 From the Hebrew Masoretic Text:
9:24 Seventyº weeksº are determinedºº uponº thy peopleº and uponº thy holyº city,º to finishºº the transgression,º and to make an endººººº of sins,º and to make reconciliationºº for iniquity,º and to bring inºº everlastingº righteousness,º and to seal upºº the visionº and prophecy,º and to anointºº the mostº Holy.º

9:25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until the Anointed{gr.Christ} the prince [there shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then [the time] shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.


9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

9:26 And afterº threescoreº and twoº weeksº shall Messiahº be cut off,ºº but notº for himself: and the peopleº of the princeº that shall comeºº shall destroyºº the cityº and the sanctuary;º and the endº thereof [shall be] with a flood,º and untoº the endº of the warº desolationsºº are determined.ºº

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

9:27 And he shall confirmºº the covenantº with manyº for oneº week:º and in the midstº of the weekº he shall cause the sacrificeº and the oblationº to cease,ºº and forº the overspreadingº of abominationsº he shall make [it] desolate,ºº even untilº the consummation,º and that determinedºº shall be pouredºº uponº the desolate.

Brenton English Translation of the Greek Septuagint

Daniel 9:24 : "Seventyº weeksº are determinedºº uponº thy peopleº and uponº thy holyº city,º to finishºº the transgression,º and to make an endººººº of sins,º and to make reconciliationºº for iniquity,º and to bring inºº everlastingº righteousness,º and to seal upºº the visionº and prophecy,º and to anointºº the mostº Holy."

9:25 "And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until the Anointed{gr.Christ} the prince [there shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then [the time] shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted."

9:25 "Knowºº therefore and understand,ºº [that] fromº the going forthº of the commandmentº to restoreºº and to buildºº Jerusalemº untoº the Messiahº the Princeº [shall be] sevenº weeks,º and threescoreº and twoº weeks:º the streetº shall be builtºº again,ºº and the wall,º even in troublousº times."

Daniel 9:26: "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations."

Daniel 9:26: "And afterº threescoreº and twoº weeksº shall Messiahº be cut off,ºº but notº for himself: and the peopleº of the princeº that shall comeºº shall destroyºº the cityº and the sanctuary;º and the endº thereof [shall be] with a flood,º and untoº the endº of the warº desolationsºº are determined."

Daniel 9: 27: " And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation."

Note that in the English translation of the Masoretic Hebrew for Daniel 9: 27 "he shall cause the sacrificeº and the oblationº to cease." There is no "he" in the Brenton English translation of the Greek Septuagint for Daniel 9: 27.

Daniel 9:27 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

Daniel 9:27
9:27 2532 και And 1412 δυναμώσει he shall

strengthen 1242 διαθήκην covenant 4183 πολλοίς with

many 1439.1 εβδομάς [2period of sevens 1520 μία

1one]; 2532 και and 1722 εν in 3588 τω the 2255

ημίσει half 3588 της of the 1439.1 εβδομάδος period

of seven 142 αρθήσεται shall be lifted away 2378

θυσία sacrifice 2532 και and 4700.2 σπονδή libation

offering, 2532 και and 1909 επί upon 3588 το the

2413 ιερόν temple 946 βδέλυγμα an abomination

3588 των of the 2050 ερημώσεων desolations

1510.8.3 έσται will be; 2532 και and 2193 έως until

3588 της the 4930 συντελείας completion 2540

καιρού of time, 4930 συντέλεια completion 1325

δοθήσεται shall be given 1909 επί unto 3588 την the

2050 ερήμωσιν desolation. No "he" in the Greek Septuagint for Daniel 9: 27

What is the Masoretic Text?

"There is a great difference of opinion as to when the Masoretic Text was written, but it was probably accomplished in the 10th -11th century. Several editions existed, varying considerably, but the received and authoritative text is that of Jacob ben-chayim ibn Adonijah, who carefully sifted and arranged the previous works on the subject. It was published in 1524."

"Although the existing copies of the Masoretic Text date back only to the tenth century, two other important textual evidences bolster the confidence of textual critics that it is accurate. The first is the successive discoveries of manuscripts at Qumran by the Dead Sea since 1947. These revealed portions of manuscripts several centuries older than any previously known. The second is the comparison of the Masoretic text to the Greek translation called the Septuagint (or LXX), which was written around 200-150 B.C."

The Septuagint Greek text is said to date to about 200 to 150 B.C., while the Hebrew Masoretic text goes back only to the tenth century A.D. a considerable difference. In addition, the Masoretic text dates from the time of Talmudic Judaism, while the Septuagint Greek is a translation of some Hebrew text dating from the time of Old Covenant Israel.

Dispensationalists claim there is to be a one man Anti-Christ figure in the future. But - in scripture, I John 2: 18. says there are many anti-Christs and I John 4: 2-3, says there is a spirit of Anti-Christ. So, based on their own idea that there is to be a one man Anti-Christ figure in the future, they then postulate that their one man Anti-Christ figure appears in Daniel 9: 27.

 

[1watchman]

Israel in 2018 is the same as Israel from the beginning: Jacob, who was humbled before God and brought to surrender his will to obey God, and then given the name of Israel ("prince with God"); and also his twelve sons who were given the place of blessing and collectively called "Israel", as God's chosen people by a covenant (promise of God) for His care as His earthly people forever. They have been much disciplined down through history for failures (and even today are under great discipline), yet have the promise as a people (not the individuals) to be restored to rule for God over the world on the "new earth" after the Tribulation time and the Millennium to follow.

Israel will be preserved (and continued to be disciplined) along the way; and today as they have continued to rebel by rejecting their Messiah ---the Christ of God, they are allowed back in the land in preparation for the end time when the nation will be God's government on the "new earth" ---all as the Bible shows the earnest Bible student, who need to be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", as God says. Israel was divided into Judah --with Benjamin (today called "Jews") and all other tribes as Israel, though many Israelites presently do not know what tribe they are from.

It is important in this dispensation (God's administrations) to see that individual "Jews" MUST come even as does individual Gentiles, as lost sinners and be spiritually "born again", as Nicodemus (the Jewish teacher) needed to learn from the Lord (John 3); and that to be saved and part of the "Bride" ---the Church of God and a heavenly people.

More can be said on this subject, but serious students ought to learn this foundation about Israel and the Church in this age ("dispensation" of God ---1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:25). The Church is NOT an extension of Israel, but the fulfillment of their hope, and for all mankind yet today.
- 1watchman

 

[northwye]

Of course, whether Israel defined by the physical Bloodline, and not by faith, continues to exist, or was done away with when the Old Covenant was done away, would become an endless quarrel if scripture is not made the authority for this issue. And this issue has become such a quarrel.

 

[1watchman]

Yes, there is always quarrels over Scripture, but the truth is there for diligent seekers. What a wondrous and perfect God we have!

 

[Copperhead]

The perspective one needs is this.... Israel is a nation, but that has nothing to do with salvation. Even in ancient times, as now, being a part of Israel does not make one saved. The Ekklessia is only made up of believers saved by faith. One can be in both camps if they are a Messianic Jew.

Now true, those that are not of the physical line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and believe are "grafted" in to Israel under the same faith as Abraham. That is why Paul stated that all who are of Israel (Hebrews) are not all truly Israel. In other words, though they may be physically of Israel, not all have the faith of Abraham, therefore truly part of Israel. Gentiles, though they are not physically Israel, those that have the faith of Abraham are grafted into the tree, of which Abraham is the root. But that does not make them Israel. As Paul states, those Gentiles grafted in are still wild olive branches that have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel.

Paul also warned those that are grafted in not to think of themselves superior to those that are physical Israel, but without the faith of Abraham. And therein lies the rub. The "church", in many instances, has placed itself above Israel, when in fact it is only grafted in. It has not replaced Israel, it has only become part of israel in that it receives its nourishment by the same faith that Abraham had.

And it is an identity, not a means of salvation. Again, one can be of Israel and not be saved. Israel is a national identity. It is the faith of Abraham, the father of Israel, that saves.

Many in the church should read Romans more closely and at the same time, attend a horticulture class. They might get things straight.

 

[northwye]

Quote from post number 9: "Gentiles, though they are not physically Israel, those that have the faith of Abraham are grafted into the tree, of which Abraham is the root. But that does not make them Israel. As Paul states, those Gentiles grafted in are still wild olive branches that have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel."

Dispensationalism begins from the postulate that there must always be a separation of Israel, by which is meant Israel defined as the the physical bloodline, from the Church. In the quote above the assertion that Gentiles grafted in to the tree are still wild olive branches and not Israel comes from the theology. No text from Romans 11: 17-24 is quoted as saying this because there is no such text. If Paul had said in Romans 11: 17-24 that Gentiles grafted in to the olive tree remain Gentiles, this would be a serious contradiction of Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28.

To make a postulate is to"suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or belief."

However, the Elect of God can honor that remnant which Paul mentions in Romans 11: 1-5, which were in the past of physical Israel. But this remnant was changed and their faith in Christ and his Gospel changed them. But to say that Gentiles who have the same faith are not equal to that remnant who first were of physical Israel is false.

The man made theology of dispensationalism is making the spiritual power of that Gospel weaker by asserting that those of the physical Bloodline always remain superior to those of faith who are not of the physical bloodline. And this is a way of saying, as dispensationalism postulates, that the physical bloodline remains always.

And this is where the observation of R.C. Sproul Jr. should be noticed:
See: November 11, 2016 – "Come Further Up, Come Further In"
regeneration-and-the-problem-with-dispensationalism/
"In a relatively recent “round table” discussion with Sinclair Ferguson, R.
C. Sproul Jr., and a few others, R. C. Sproul shared an anecdote of a
conversation he had with some of the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary
(historic bastion of dispensationalism) regarding this problem. In
recounting the conversation, Sproul said the following:
They asked me, “R.C., what’s your problem with dispensationalism?” And I
said, “You know, my biggest problem with dispensationalism is your historic
doctrine of regeneration.”And that was met with bewilderment. These
professors said, “What are you talking about? What’s the problem with our
view of regeneration?”
I said, “Well, classic dispensationalism teaches that when the Holy Spirit
regenerates a person, that person does not experience a change in their
nature. So that you can have the Spirit in you, and you be in a state of
salvation, without any change in your life whatsoever."

There is also the question that can be asked of the dispensationalists: "Where in 2018 are those who belong to physical Israel? One answer is that it is those in Talmudic Judaism, but again that would set off more quarrels. We do not want quarrels, We do want a following of Jude 1: 3 - "..ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

"If Paul had said in Romans 11: 17-24 that Gentiles grafted in to the olive tree remain Gentiles, this would be a serious contradiction of Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 28."

Paul is using a metaphor in Romans 11: 17-24, the good olive tree or their own olive tree and the wild olive tree,

There is another metaphor dealing with this transformation from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant - in Jeremiah 18: 1-6. Here the metaphor is about a potter first making a pot on his potter's wheel which he sees as being flawed. So, within the metaphor the potter takes the flawed wet clay off his wheel and puts it on the table and kneads is, adding some dry clay to it, and then puts the same lump of clay back on his wheel and makes another, better pot out of it. Paul understood this metaphor. He talks about the "lump," or phuraqma, in Romans 9: 21, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Jeremiah 18: 1-6 may not be taught by dispensationalists, since it does not necessarily fit their theology.

 

[Copperhead]

You seem to be more stuck on the idea of dispensationalism. I just paraphrased what Paul stated in Romans. Whether that is dispensationalism or not, I really could care less.