Who is Gog of the land of Magog?

[AlasBabylon]

Thanks, I missed that one. Have you read The Ezekiel Option by Joel Rosenberg? It is also based on Ezekiel 38.

No, I haven't. I bet it's interesting.

.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

No, I haven't. I bet it's interesting.

.

It is in an edge of your seat kind of way.

 

[Waterwerx]

Oh no, I think you misunderstand. The Ezekiel 38-39 events are for the very end of this world, the Hamongog being a result of the battle of Armageddon on the final 7th Vial of Rev.16 when Jesus showed He comes "as a thief". So it actually does agree with Paul in 1 Thess.5 about the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked and deceived, which prophecy originated from the OT prophets like Isaiah 29.

It should be remembered that the fall of Gog and 5/6th of his forces on the mountains of Israel does not equate to the defeat of the entire coalition of the northern army. It is a mistake to compartmentalize the entirety of the Ezekiel 38-39 account.
We're never ever going to have a complete chronological step by step itinerary of everything that takes place until after it occurs.
What we do know is that Gog makes his initial move during a time of peace. This isn't some hastily-thrown-together-last-minute invasion. It is planned( Ezekiel 38:10 ), they are fully prepared & equipped( Ezekiel 38:4 ).
This is not the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon involves "all" nations coming against Israel and are headed up by the antichrist.
There are a couple of decisive "battles" during the war of the great tribulation period.

 

[Davy]

It should be remembered that the fall of Gog and 5/6th of his forces on the mountains of Israel does not equate to the defeat of the entire coalition of the northern army. It is a mistake to compartmentalize the entirety of the Ezekiel 38-39 account.
We're never ever going to have a complete chronological step by step itinerary of everything that takes place until after it occurs.
What we do know is that Gog makes his initial move during a time of peace. This isn't some hastily-thrown-together-last-minute invasion. It is planned( Ezekiel 38:10 ), they are fully prepared & equipped( Ezekiel 38:4 ).
This is not the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon involves "all" nations coming against Israel and are headed up by the antichrist.
There are a couple of decisive "battles" during the war of the great tribulation period.

I don't agree with how you're treating the idea of the Gog/Magog army out of the northern quarters coming upon Israel not being the Armageddon of Rev.16. The supper of the Great God in Rev.19 is the same supper in Ezek.39:17-20, and happens on the final day, the "day of the Lord", for that is why Jesus is being described there in Rev.19 coming on a white horse with His army from Heaven.

 

[Waterwerx]

I don't agree with how you're treating the idea of the Gog/Magog army out of the northern quarters coming upon Israel not being the Armageddon of Rev.16. The supper of the Great God in Rev.19 is the same supper in Ezek.39:17-20, and happens on the final day, the "day of the Lord", for that is why Jesus is being described there in Rev.19 coming on a white horse with His army from Heaven.

Because what you're insinuating with this is that there will be peace right up until just before the battle of Armageddon, which just isn't the case. I've already pointed out the conditions that exist before Gog makes his move to Israel.

 

[Davy]

Because what you're insinuating with this is that there will be peace right up until just before the battle of Armageddon, which just isn't the case. I've already pointed out the conditions that exist before Gog makes his move to Israel.

I'm not going to argue with you, I disagree, strongly, and here's why...

What God does to the Gog army of Ezek.38:

Ezek 38:18-20
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face.

19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
KJV

Those things are to occur on the final day of this present world, on the "day of the Lord".

Heb 12:25-27
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
KJV

 

[Waterwerx]

19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
KJV

Those things are to occur on the final day of this present world, on the "day of the Lord".

How is that synonymous with the battle of Armageddon? Are you aware of the fact that the day of the Lord isn't referencing a single specific 24-hour day, but rather an extended period of time within the tribulation involving judgment? By the time the battle of Armageddon takes place, all of the 21 judgments in Revelation will have taken place.

Gog and his allies initiates the military conflict which turns into a protracted war that progressively spreads to involve all nations and increases in severity/destructiveness. Gog and 5/6th of his forces fall on the mountains of Israel and the rest are driven back to Siberia where they regroup. Then you have another wave involving this reconstituted group coming from the north and the other from the east which together end up totaling 200 million men and is responsible for the killing of 1/3rd of mankind. There is an obvious pattern here that lines up with the 2nd through 4th seals and the 6th trumpet.

The triumphant feast in Ezekiel and Revelation are one and the same. The issue with lumping this feast and the battle of Gog together with Armageddon is you end up with a multitude of contradictions & timing issues with other Scripture.
The abomination of desolation is set up half-way through the tribulation period, at which point the Jews will not be dwelling securely, but will have to flee for their lives.
The only explanation that makes sense regarding the cleanup, feast, etc., is the prophecy jumps ahead and skips over events, which is typical in numerous OT prophecies regarding the day of the Lord.

 

[Davy]

How is that synonymous with the battle of Armageddon? Are you aware of the fact that the day of the Lord isn't referencing a single specific 24-hour day, but rather an extended period of time within the tribulation involving judgment?

Impossible if you heed what's written in the OT prophets, and especially the event Peter spoke of, which he was pulling from the OT prophets also:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

What you are heeding instead is a doctrine from men linked to the pre-tribulational rapture theory of men (by John Darby in 1830's Britain). Those are trying to move the "day of the Lord" event back in time so as to make their theory of the rapture timing to be prior... to the tribulation.

God's Word shows the "day of the Lord" will only occur to end... the reign of the wicked on earth, and Jesus also showed the day of His coming is at the end of the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31).

 

[DavidPT]

The only explanation that makes sense regarding the cleanup, feast, etc., is the prophecy jumps ahead and skips over events, which is typical in numerous OT prophecies regarding the day of the Lord.

So where are you placing the time of the cleanup, which I'm assuming you are meaning the burning of the weapons for 7 years, and the burying 7 months of the remains of Gog and his multitude? One thing seems certain, none of these things can parallel the 70th week. During the 70th week saints are being persecuted by the beast, therefore wouldn't be burning weapons for 7 years. It seems to me then, this cleanup has to be meaning after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, at least.

 

[Waterwerx]

What you are heeding instead is a doctrine from men linked to the pre-tribulational rapture theory of men (by John Darby in 1830's Britain). Those are trying to move the "day of the Lord" event back in time so as to make their theory of the rapture timing to be prior... to the tribulation.

Did I say anything about this being based on a "rapture" or "pre-tribulation"?

Isaiah 2:12,20 & Revelation 6:15-17 would be a good place for you to start, not to mention Revelation 9:10 and keeping in mind that the seals & trumpets are in chronological order. It should be rather obvious in these verses together that the day of the Lord encompasses more than just a 24-hour period of time...

So where are you placing the time of the cleanup, which I'm assuming you are meaning the burning of the weapons for 7 years, and the burying 7 months of the remains of Gog and his multitude? One thing seems certain, none of these things can parallel the 70th week. During the 70th week saints are being persecuted by the beast, therefore wouldn't be burning weapons for 7 years. It seems to me then, this cleanup has to be meaning after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, at least.

It doesn't make sense to me either that they would be performing a massive cleanup in the midst of the tribulation period. While I wouldn't label it "impossible", I would say that its highly unlikely and that the cleanup starts when the millennial kingdom starts. I would also add that its a possible blessing that all of those war implements will be useable as fuel for fire in their destruction process considering that a third of the trees are burned in the first trumpet.

 

[Davy]

....
It should be rather obvious in these verses together that the day of the Lord encompasses more than just a 24-hour period of time...
....

That idea is part of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory. They treat the "day of the Lord" as if it starts at the beginning of the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned us of, and continues all the way through the tribulation. They basically teach that 'day' is the tribulation. But that's not... what God's Word teaches.

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Now I DID... show you that from 2 Pet.3:10 in my previous post but you said NOTHING about it because it obviously ends ANY argument about that "day of the Lord" lasting any longer than a moment. Apostle Paul showed it as the "sudden destruction" in 1 Thess.5.

So if you want to deny those Scripture proofs then I can't help you.

 

[BABerean2]

During the 70th week saints are being persecuted by the beast, therefore wouldn't be burning weapons for 7 years.

Since there is no "gap" in the 490 years, the 70th week happened almost 2,000 years ago.

.

 

[Davy]

To assume Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27 has already been fulfilled, and applying the events of that verse to Christ Jesus, is to say that Jesus is the "vile person" of Dan.11, since the events in Dan.9:27 directly link to the wickedness the "vile person" does in Jerusalem.

 

[jgr]

To assume Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27 has already been fulfilled, and applying the events of that verse to Christ Jesus, is to say that Jesus is the "vile person" of Dan.11, since the events in Dan.9:27 directly link to the wickedness the "vile person" does in Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:27 refers to "he". Where is "he" said to be vile? The antecdents of "he" are Messiah and prince in the previous verse(s). Nowhere therein is a "vile person" explicit or implicit.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:27 refers to "he". Where is "he" said to be vile? The antecdents of "he" are Messiah and prince in the previous verse(s). Nowhere therein is a "vile person" explicit or implicit.

Quit playing games with semantics and look at the events of Dan.11 that link to the Dan.9:27 verse and you'll find the 'he'.

 

[jgr]

Quit playing games with semantics and look at the events of Dan.11 that link to the Dan.9:27 verse and you'll find the 'he'.

There is no link except in your imagination.

 

[Davy]

There is no link except in your imagination.

Easy to show you wrong:

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:


Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
KJV

The "league" is obviously involving the reconstituting of "the holy covenant", i.e. the old covenant to include another temple and animal sacrifices. Jesus made no league or covenant during His Ministry.


Dan.9L27 "...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...."

That is about ending the daily sacrifice requirement as part of the old covenant. And instead he places an idol abomination in its place...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Simple. The "he" of Dan.9:27 is that "vile person".

 

[jgr]

Easy to show you wrong:

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:


Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
KJV

The "league" is obviously involving the reconstituting of "the holy covenant", i.e. the old covenant to include another temple and animal sacrifices. Jesus made no league or covenant during His Ministry.


Dan.9L27 "...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...."

That is about ending the daily sacrifice requirement as part of the old covenant. And instead he places an idol abomination in its place...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Simple. The "he" of Dan.9:27 is that "vile person".

"He" in v. 27 is the "prince" in v. 26.

 

[jgr]

"He" in v. 27 is the "prince" in v. 26.

And the prince in v. 26 and v. 25 is Messiah. Thus:

Messiah = prince = he
in v. 25-27

 

[Waterwerx]

Now I DID... show you that from 2 Pet.3:10 in my previous post but you said NOTHING about it because it obviously ends ANY argument about that "day of the Lord" lasting any longer than a moment. Apostle Paul showed it as the "sudden destruction" in 1 Thess.5.

This was addressed in my post that followed:

Isaiah 2:12,20 & Revelation 6:15-17 would be a good place for you to start, not to mention Revelation 9:10 and keeping in mind that the seals & trumpets are in chronological order. It should be rather obvious in these verses together that the day of the Lord encompasses more than just a 24-hour period of time...

Given what is said in the book of Revelation alone, it should be rather obvious that all of these things do not occur in a 24-hour time period. The day of the Lord involves judgment. The seals, trumpets, and vials are all judgments, some of which explicitly indicate a period of time much greater than 24 hours.
With that said, it should be understood that Paul wasn't saying that all of these things are going to occur in a 24-hour time period, but rather that this period of time will come unexpectedly upon those who dwell upon the earth.