WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello David, some comments for you below.

An interesting post.
You believe that obeying the literal ten commandments is love. I believe that loving others automatically fulfills the requirements of the ten commandments.

We have a standoff.

Either obeying the literal ten commandments is our Christian goal, or loving others is our Christian goal?

One is the golden rule and the other is not.

Which interpretation is correct?

NO! God's WORD says and that LOVE fulfills God's LAW and establsihes it. LOVE is the very expression of God's LAW in the life of those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and is why JESUS says if you LOVE me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is the NEW COVENANT promise in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. This is why JESUS says on these two commandments [LOVE to GOD and Man] hang all the LAW and the prophetss *MATTHEW 22:36-40

 

[LoveGodsWord]

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says:
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

If only those who keep all of God's commands are the true church then Paul is wrong and we should recognize he is a false teacher.

The problem with the OP is that it attempts to collect the Biblical data in such a way as to forcing the reader to discard other inferences. But we want to look at all the data of scripture not just a selection that make one inference appear better. When we grab all the data, we find that many in the ecclesia are not perfectly obedient as the OP suggests.

It seems you did not read the OP either is your post clear. How does the OP disagree with PAUL or anything else in God's WORD? It is mostly God's WORD.

 

[Uber Genius]

God's LAW of liberty is LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD *JAMES 2:8-11; ROMANS 13:8-10.

But that has no explanatory power for Galatians 3 where Paul calls those trying to put the Christian converts under the Law. Paul calls the people who follow that false teaching, fools, and bewitched.

Further, isn't it strange that Paul would go from Romans 13 to Romans 14:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. 2For one man has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;a he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

7For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:

“As surely as I live, says the Lord,

every knee will bow before Me;

every tongue will confessb to God.”c

12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Again, Is Paul confused? Incoherent?

According to your post you seem to think that Romans 13 supports legalism. But then Paul in the next chapter gives an account that is titled by many, "The Law of Liberty." How ironic.

As for the James 2 reference, I don't know of one scholar that interprets James as suggesting that we need to keep the entirety of the Law any more than they think Jesus' passage in Matt 5:48 is how one becomes a Christian. James is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who claim to be superior and show favoritism. He is contrasting the Law with a new "Law of Liberty."

"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom.13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

If you keep lifting scripture out of its original context, then you are without hope to properly represent God's word.

If you keep misrepresenting God's word, then what will the judgement be?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello David, some comments for you below.


NO! God's WORD says and that LOVE fulfills God's LAW and establsihes it. LOVE is the very expression of God's LAW in the life of those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and is why JESUS says if you LOVE me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is the NEW COVENANT promise in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. This is why JESUS says on these two commandments [LOVE to GOD and Man] hang all the LAW and the prophetss *MATTHEW 22:36-40

Love fulfills God's Law because the Great Commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all you heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself."

The heart of God's Law, what God desires for His creation, is love. It is not resting on a particular day of the week, or offering sacrifices of animals and plants, it is not what we eat, or what we drink, or any of these things. It is simply this: That we love even as we have been loved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But that has no explanatory power for Galatians 3 where Paul calls those trying to put the Christian converts under the Law. Paul calls the people who follow that false teaching, fools, and bewitched.

Further, isn't it strange that Paul would go from Romans 13 to Romans 14:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. 2For one man has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;a he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

7For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:

“As surely as I live, says the Lord,

every knee will bow before Me;

every tongue will confessb to God.”c

12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Again, Is Paul confused? Incoherent?

According to your post you seem to think that Romans 13 supports legalism. But then Paul in the next chapter gives an account that is titled by many, "The Law of Liberty." How ironic.

Hmm you seem to be making things up as you go along now. What is legalism in your view and why do you claim things that are not being said here?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Love fulfills God's Law because the Great Commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all you heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself."

The heart of God's Law, what God desires for His creation, is love. It is not resting on a particular day of the week, or offering sacrifices of animals and plants, it is not what we eat, or what we drink, or any of these things. It is simply this: That we love even as we have been loved.

-CryptoLutheran

God's 10 commandments are the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. It is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN by faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

If you have no LAW you have no KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.
If you have no KNOWLEDGE of what sin is you have no need of a Saviour
If you have no need of a Saviour you have no salvation.
If you have no salvation you are lost because your still in your sins.

Then the scripture is fulfilled...

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 commandments. If we KNOWINGLY break it just like any of the other 10 Commandments we commit sin because sin is the transgression of God's LAW *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

God's true people according to God's WORD keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of GOD. (1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; REVELATION 12:17; 14:12; 22:14.

 

[Saint Steven]

"The Church" is not any particular denomination or building or world wide collective of buildings or organization but is the remnant within them all who are born again believers who ultimately make up The Body of Christ. Spiritually, Christ is the Head and born again believers are The Body of Christ, collectively ( Christ and His born again believers) that makes "The Church". Several scriptures can be applied.

I wonder if the term "born again" is divisive. Evangelicals have latched onto it. Others may dislike the term or its association with a specific group.

 

[Francis Drake]

In Lutheranism we understand that wherever the Word is preached and the Sacraments administered there is the Church; for God's people, His holy assembly, are marked by Word and Sacrament.

These things can equally be done by unbelievers, as they often are, and are no bench mark of what the church is.
When Jesus walked his 3year ministry, there were many places where the "word" was preached, (Jesus even taking his turn), and where the appropriate sacraments were administered

every Sabbath​

Jesus made it clear that many of them were simply serving their father the devil.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Desiring to live by the "knowledge of Good and Evil" was what brought death to Adam and mankind.
No matter how man tries to do that he will always fail, and in Matt5 that's what we find Jesus is teaching, the utter futility of trying to be perfect.

I'd much rather eat from the Tree of Life that the tree of death.

You cannot eat of the tree of life while breaking any of God's commandments. KNOWINGLY breaking any of God's commandments is eating of the tree of death because the wages of sin is death in all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23

 

[Uber Genius]

It seems you did not read the OP either is your post clear. How does the OP disagree with PAUL or anything else in God's WORD? It is mostly God's WORD.

So I thought the OP was so clear it didn't need to be quoted.

But I will make it clearer:

A Church therefore is the people the BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. They are the called out and Jesus is in the midst of them.

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep <ALL> his commandments.

which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

ere are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

NOTE: God's saints keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God.

The Church is composed of "God's saints that keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God."

My point was, "THIS CLAIM IS FALSE ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE."

My points were that Paul gives us descriptions of God's judgement of the Church where people are not keeping ALL THE COMMANDMENTS."

It is what is called a knockdown argument in both philosophy and theology.

It can't possibly be the case that the Church is made up of God's Saints that keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God, according to the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We seem to have a containment issue with the law. What you posted would infer all 613. "... and if there is any other commandment..." (and there are - 613+)

Not really. How many commandments are there in God's 10 Commandments that God spoke and wrote with his own finger on two tables of stone, 613, 9 or 10? *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:13; DEUTERONOMY 10:4; EXODUS 20:1-17

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So I thought the OP was so clear it didn't need to be quoted.

But I will make it clearer:

The Church is composed of "God's saints that keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God."

My point was, "THIS CLAIM IS FALSE ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE."

My points were that Paul gives us descriptions of God's judgement of the Church where people are not keeping ALL THE COMMANDMENTS."

It is what is called a knockdown argument in both philosophy and theology.

It can't possibly be the case that the Church is made up of God's Saints that keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God, according to the scriptures.

So you believe John's claim is false and that God's Saints do not keep God's Commandments? Then off you go prove your claim. What you have posted so far does not make any sense. Your posting against God's WORD not mine and you did not add this into your post.

1 JOHN 2:3-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep <ALL> his commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

REVELATION 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

REVELATION 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

REVELATION 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice God's people keep ALL of God's Commandments through FAITH in Christ?

NOTE: God's saints keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God. It is these people that are a remnant that the devil is making war with. They are called God's saints and these are the ones that have right to the tree of life.

 

[gordonhooker]

...and every once in awhile, we even get a thread that amounts to nothing more than an opportunity for each person to post that his own church ''...is the true church and sorry 'bout yours!''

To right brother - they call it tribalism.....

 

[Blade]

You asked "who is".. Christ told Peter upon this ROCK will I build my Church. Thats not hard to understand its all that believe in Christ. Now.. are we looking at this BEFORE Christ died or after? That matters. The NT is the OT revealed for the Father has never changed.

Then commandments.. is that the word He used? What we have NOW they didnt have IN THEM. Those LAWS are now written on your heart. That command is "if you love me keep my words". His words were simple "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" ALL the law and the Prophets...

so if you dont keep them.. your not of Christ? Not saved? For salvation is not keeping the law. There is SO MUCH here..so deep..yet its not being seen. His burden is light.. yoke is easy. As I see it there are steps SO TO SPEAK.. things one should do 1st.. like do you KNOW HIM? Like you know your best friend your spouse your kids? He is MORE real than that. He is with you EVERY moment of your life.. WITH YOU not billions of miles away.. He can do ANYTHING

Seek 1st the kingdom of God and His righteousness. LOVE the lord your God with all your heart soul and mind. Do you KNOW HIM. How ...just how can you love someone you dont know? After some time Christ said..IF YOU LOVE ME. So for me all of this is mute.. unless I KNOW HIM 1st..gonna follow someone give up everything for someone you dont know? For what? JUST to live for ever? Thats not love...

Since YOU were made in HIS image.. if I asked you..what do you like.. love.. do you know what He likes and loves? Not the classic.. for God so loved the world lol. Have a best friend? What do you talk about? So..what does HE talk about what does the sweet sweet Holy Spirit talk about? EVER take time to LISTEN? Yet we want to talk about who is the Church and commandments? Wonderful awesome truly good things yet.. do you KNOW HIM...yet we say we LOVE HIM...in this is me.. I ask myself all the time.. you LOVE HIM? What is love? Is this how I treat HIM think about HIM live for Him die for Him each day..talk to my brothers and sister and the world.. do I really LOVE HIM

 

[Uber Genius]

Hmm you seem to be making things up as you go along now. What is legalism in your view and why do you claim things that are not being said here?

Your claim again was that in order to be a part of the Church one must, "be God's saint who KEEPS ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD."

Gal. 3 says,

"You foolish Galatians. Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Does this sound like KEEPING ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God as OP suggests?

The context of Galatians was Paul had been informed that Judiazers were trying to tell the church of Galatia that they needed to keep ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS of God. That is why I thought it was an appropriate quote. Because it deals with the same topic as the OP.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your claim again was that in order to be a part of the Church one must, "be God's saint who KEEPS ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD."

Gal. 3 says,

"You foolish Galatians. Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Does this sound like KEEPING ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God as OP suggests?

I suggest you read the OP. I did not say that at all.

 

[Francis Drake]

You cannot eat of the tree of life while breaking any of God's commandments. KNOWINGLY breaking any of God's commandments is eating of the tree of death because the wages of sin is death in all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23

So

by obeying the Law​

you get to eat of the Spirit of Life.
Maybe Paul was writing to you.

Gal3v1You foolish Galatians (insert own name here), who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

And
Rom2v29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really. How many commandments are there in God's 10 Commandments that God spoke and wrote with his own finger on two tables of stone, 613, 9 or 10? *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:13; DEUTERONOMY 10:4; EXODUS 20:1-17

I guess you didn't read his post.

 

[Uber Genius]

I suggest you read the OP. I did not say that at all.

I just got done quoting the OP about 6 times. Please read the OP. If you want to edit the OP be my guest. If the OP is unclear and somehow "The Church" or Christian body is not, "God's saints who keep ALL OF GOD'S COMMANDMENTS of God," then change the premise and the argument.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So

by obeying the Law​

you get to eat of the Spirit of Life.
Maybe Paul was writing to you.

Gal3v1You foolish Galatians (insert own name here), who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

And
Rom2v29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Nope. We are only saved by grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8.

Grace however is for the fruit of OBEDIENCE to the faith.

ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

ROMANS 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

If your faith does not have the fruit of OBEDIENCE it is cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 7:13-23

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.