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Who is God the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 2, 2001.

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  1. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic



    The verse?
    Deut 6:4. Read it in Hebrew.

    Shma Yisrael YHVH Elohenu Adonai Echad
    Hear Isreal Father Spirit Lord one

    There's more:
    Prov 30:4
    " Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!"


    Zech 12:10
    " They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." Fulfilled in John 19:37.

    Gen 1:1 Read it in the Hebrew.
    Bere**** Elohiem...
    Beginning Spirit... Eloheim is the plural form of Eloi.

    Gen 1:26
    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,[2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    Notice it was God doing the creating, nothing else was creating. The only "us" that can create man is "God."

    Need more? There are others, but I hope you can see for yourself a starter. Don't let what somebody else has told you to be that which you cling to and thus hold God in a box. Step out of your comfort zone for a while, and I'm sure God won't mind you seeking after the answers yourself and on your own. Heck, don't even take my word for it. I offer you freedom others don't - the freedom to find out the truth for yourself. If it is truth, then the truth will be evident to all who seek it - that is a promise from God: those who seek Him, find Him.




    Which is probably why the Jews in Jesus' day wanted to stone him for this blasphemy. John 10:33:
    "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

    We know the antichrist is to be a false Jesus, claiming everything that Jesus claimed, doing what he did, and even taking the place of Jesus as the object of people's worship.

    2 Thess 2:4
    "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

    Obviously the antichrist sees a point in claiming that which Christ did for himself, otherwise there wouldn't be a need. If Satan is this clever, don't you think he would know if Jesus was God or not?




    There is.
    1 Cor 2:11
    "who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

    What does "in the same way" mean? Easy. The same way as a man spirit knows a man's thoughts, so does God's spirit know God's thoughts. It denotes simple logic which points to an obvious question:

    Is your spirit you? If so, then God's spirit is Him.




    So you're saying it's alright for me to worship my car? How about a tree? Can I worship my dog? Can I worship a frog? Can I worship a leather book? You might say the only thing we can worship is that which God tells us we can worship. It's strange to me that there are only two things we are commanded to worship (all else is optional?) God, and Jesus.

    For me who believes Jesus is God, this command to worship Jesus poses no problem. But if I believed Jesus was a mere man, then I would have a problem with that as that could mean any man could have done what Jesus did and thus be worthy of worship. It means that Jesus got into heaven on his own merit and not by the grace of God. It means that he wasn't anybody special...just someone who just did something special. Heck at this point it becomes even easy to dismiss the entire notion that Jesus was ever born of a virgin, and thus no longer an answer to prophecy... in fact that would mean that Jesus is a false messiah!






    Not biblical? Hmmm... two seperate people, both you worship and both you claim as your master: "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." - wisdom of this very Jesus you worship. Luke 16:13

    I agree we are to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, but where is it are we commanded to worship Jesus? Is it after his resurrection? After his baptism by the Holy Spirit? When? At his birth he was worshiped, and he had not yet done anything, and never was a command given to worship Jesus during that time - but it was done. This makes for an interesting point especially when it was Jesus who said "worship the Lord your God only." in Luke 4:8. Obviously if he is not God, then he would tell people to stop worshipping him. But if he is God, then it makes sense why he accepts people's worship throughout the Gospels.



    Now onto another point:

    God is love right? Well, a good way Arabs come to believe in God is a simple understanding that if God is love, then before anything was made or created, that love had to have a purpose for existing, for love can ONLY exist when there is something to be loved and loved by. - an existence of relationship is absolutly necessary. Now if God IS love, then his very nature is "relationship." Now the question is, what is that relationship that defines God's nature? The bible shows God demonstrating himself through three distinctable "who"s: The Father. The Spirit of God. Jesus Son of God and Son of Man.

    Have a great evening, Ed!
    <><
    Ryan


    (for another topic: in regards to the The Way name for the early group of believers: Acts 24:14 answers that plainly.)
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    The verse doesn't say they are one God. It's the same as when Jesus says "I and the Father are one." It does not mean they are one God.

    On the other hand, Jesus clearly (without any need for interpretation or assumption) identifies the Father as the only true God (John 17:3).

    Again, this verse does not make John 17:3 false. Jesus clearly identifies the Father as the only true God. You have to convince me that Jesus did not understand what he was saying.

    Your version of this verse is a mistranslation. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible says it differently: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." Hence, this is not proof that Jesus is God.

    Are you saying that in the beginning there were many Gods?

    Josephus, note that God is a "he" and "he" alone created man in "his" own image (Gen. 1:27). The verse doesn't say "they" to be consistent with "us." Note also that in verses 29 and 30, the singular pronoun "I" is used instead of "we."

    Who is this "he" God who created alone and used the singular pronoun "I?" Isaiah 64:8 says the creator is the Father. Malachi 2:10 says the creator is the Father. 1 Cor 8:6 says the creator is the Father.

    What you are offering Josephus are falsehood that stem out of your fanatic belief on the Trinity.

    You think like the Pharisees Josephus and you know that the Pharisees will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They were wrong in accusing Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus did not commit the crime of blasphemy. He never claimed he was equal with God or he was God himself. All he said was he is the son of God (John 10:36) and that's not blasphemy (claiming equality with God).

    What you are describing is the man of sin not the antiChrist. 1 John 4:3 is the Biblical description of the antiChrist. The antiChrist is one who does not confess that Jesus is a human being or man. The antiChrist is one who opposses what Jesus teaches. Jesus teaches that he is a man and the Father is the only true God. The antiChrist teaches that Jesus is God.

    The verse does not say the Holy Spirit is God. Who is this God who has the Spirit? The Old Testament testifies that God is the Father. Thus, the Holy Spirit of the Father is NOT separate and distinct from the Father much as your spirit is not separate from you. YOU refers to your body and spirit and a body without spirit is dead. Thus, God the Father refers to his Holy Spirit because God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

    Why would you worship your car, or your dog, or a frog or a tree? Do you worship these things because you believe they are gods? Then you would be worshipping other gods and that's what God doesn't like.

    If I worship Jesus because I believe him to be God, then that would be a violation of God's command not to serve other Gods. But I worship Jesus in obedience to God's command to worship him. Hence, I do not violate any of the laws of God.

    If you believe the Bible Josephus, the reason God commands every knee to bow at Jesus' name is because Jesus is a special MAN. He was exalted by God and was given a name which was above any other name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Phil. 2:9-11).

    Christians have only one master or Lord. That Lord is Jesus Christ (Matt. 23:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

    Luke 4:8 doesn't say "worship the Lord your God "only". You are twisting the verse. God's command to worship Jesus is recorded in Heb. 1:6 and Phil. 2:9-11.

    Again, this is a false assumption to defend a false doctrine. Who is this God who demonstrates himself in three distinctable "who's": the Father, the Spirit of God, Jesus Son of God and Son of Man?

    Ed
     
  3. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    One in what? One in unity? MY GOODNESS! You believe what I believe: in the triUNITY of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus can only be "one" with the Father as Jesus is a part of what the Father is. How is this so? Simple: How can one be in unity with God without being God themselves? Jesus does everything God does. How can Jesus do what God does unless Jesus is God? This means Jesus can be omnipotent, omnicient, - evething that God does! Don't you see the connection yet?


    My version IS the version the RSV is translated from!


    [/quote]Are you saying that in the beginning there were many Gods? [/quote]

    I'm attempting to prove the plurality of God.

    Yes, isn't that strange? God truly is one God! THe plural form of God is always "He, One" never "they" because there AREN'T three gods. Just one. So therefore, whatever it is that makes the writer write "us" as the ONE creating, that is what I believe! There is an "us" in the "one" and only God!

    That is unsubstantiated. From my shoes, it looks like you are picking and choosing scripture to FIT a doctrine. I don't start with a doctrine. I am simply starting by taking the whole thing into context from the beginning to the end. This is how God reveals himself in scripture: through a plurality of theophanies that somehow can be categorized into tthree types: Spirit, Man, Creator.


    Obviously if the Pharisees believed this is what Jesus was saying, then I will take their word (and the word of the apostles writing the account) as opposed to yours because unlike them, you can not question Jesus like they could. They obviously COULD question Jesus, and they did, and they came to their conclusions that Jesus was claiming to be God. Since they did not believe this, they condemned him for the crime of blasphemy - even though he was telling the truth and was innocent - and the apostles wrote it as such. Jesus never claimed that he was NOT God to anyone.


    My spirit is not my carnal mind. My spirit is neither my flesh. It is definatly distinct from my other parts of me. Except, where my spirit is finite, God is inifinite, where my mind is finite, the Creator Father is infinite.

    What do you think it means when the Father asks us to worship Jesus? What does worship mean in your language so I can see where you are comming from?


    Oh, so Jesus is a SPECIAL man - but just a man. So that any man like you or me could have been Jesus?


    God is my master and Lord.
    Jesus is my master and Lord.
    I have only one Lord who is my master.

    All three of these statements are true, and all three are commanded of God.

    WHAT? I bet my own life it does say that- and it says it quite plainly! Anything ELSE is a twisting of the scripture. Period. Look up this very in the very Greek and you will see the word "only." It can only mean one thing: worship and serve the Lord your God only! Aren't you seeing a connection yet? I pray that you do.


    Jesus's baptism in Matthew 3.
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    You wrote: quote]WHAT? I bet my own life it does say that- and it says it quite plainly! Anything ELSE is a twisting of the scripture. Period. Look up this very in the very Greek and you will see the word "only." It can only mean one thing: worship and serve the Lord your God only! Aren't you seeing a connection yet? I pray that you do. [/quote]

    So you know what the word "only" means after all. Why don't you read John 17:3 again and see if you recognize the word "only". It can only mean one thing: the true God is the Father only!

    The connection you see is but a figment of your imagination.

    Ed
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    let me say here again ed that the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    LouisBooth,

    You wrote:
    This only shows how "low" one can stoop to the point of making one's self look like a moron to defend an undefensible false doctrine. Back up a bit to verse 1 to find out whom Jesus was talking to in this verse.

    The word 'father' doesn't hae to be mentioned for us to know that Jesus ws talking to the Father.

    Ed
     
  7. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    "So you know what the word "only" means after all. Why don't you read John 17:3 again and see if you recognize the word "only". It can only mean one thing: the true God is the Father only"

    But Luke 4:8 Jesus says only you can worship ONLY God - yet Jesus recieved worship. Reconcile that! You have to! Obviously if Luke 4:8 is true, and John 17:3 is true, then the Father must be the only God, and Jesus must be that only God.


    ADMIN NOTE: Ed, do not call people names. If you do, you will be suspended from the King's Tavern. This is your only warning. Thank you.
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    First of all, if you read Luke 4:8 again, you will find out that Jesus was quoting what was written in Deuteronomy 6:13 and it does not say that we worship the Lord God only.

    Second, your assumption that if Luke 4:8 and John 17:3 are both true, then the Father must be the only God, and Jesus must be that only God" is false because Jesus will always be the SON who is always separate and distinct from the Father.

    Ed
     
  9. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    ed, tell me, is your thumb seperate and distinct from your head? Can someone reasonably tell the difference between the two? Of course you can, because a thumb and a head are two different things - but they belong to the same body.
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    Do you call your thumb head or vice versa just because they both belong to one body? This is what you are trying to tell me, that Jesus can be God because he and God belong to the same body. Can't you see that the farther you are from the Bible, the more absurd you become?

    The Father identified Jesus as His Son and we must listen to him (Matt. 17:5). Jesus identified his Father as the only true God (John 17:3) thereby effectively excluding himself as God. Jesus identified himself as a man (John 8:40).

    Why is it too hard for you and everyone else to believe what Jesus said? Is this the way you acknowledge Jesus as your personal Lord? Is this what Lordship mens to you?

    Ed
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "The word 'father' doesn't hae to be mentioned for us to know that Jesus ws talking to the Father."

    I know that ed, its call context..but you seem to always call me on that when I put it into it so I was showing you how to use it ;) Help any? Why is it you add context here and not in other verses?

    "Do you call your thumb head or vice versa just because they both belong to one body? "

    No..but you DO SAY IT IS ONE BODY JUST AS IT IS ONE GOD WITH THREE PARTS.

    "Why is it too hard for you and everyone else to believe what Jesus said? "

    Ask yourself that question ed. Why do you find it so hard to believe when Christ not only says BUT SHOWS he is God?
     
  12. MikeMcK

    MikeMcK Well-Known Member

    +625
    Christian
    In Relationship
    US-Republican
    bump
     
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