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Featured WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Briefcase, Dec 18, 2019.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    False religions is one form of sin. Sin entered the world through one man (Romans 5:12), so sin must have been in existence before hand.

    Babylon the Great is responsible for all that have been slain upon the earth, Revelation 18:24. That would go all the way back to Abel.

    Where sin got its start was back when iniquity was found in Satan.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    Satan convinced a third of the angels to join him in his rebellion against the Kingdom of Heaven. In Revelation, Satan and his angel's "anti" Kingdom of God, is called mystery Babylon the Great, not a tangible kingdom that can be seen, but a kingdom nonetheless that has been ruling over the earth ever since Adam and Eve errored and committed the first sin by humans.
    _________________________________________________________
    The bible does not say Babylon the Great is destroyed by any governments. It indicates in Revelation 17:16 that the ten kings destroy the whore.

    Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Differently, by act of God, Babylon the Great, mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels will be destroyed.

    Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    God is going to destroy the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels, during the time, times, half times that Satan will have left during the second half of the 7 years.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  2. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    WHAT DO YOU THINK TEN KINGS MEANS? Kings are leaders inside their respective governments. The fact there are 10 kings working together to form another king proves it is a conglomerate of those 10 governments.

    Your statement is, and I quote, [ "The bible does not say Babylon the Great is destroyed by any governments. It indicates in Revelation 17:16 that the ten kings destroy the whore.
    Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."]

    The scriptures that precede Revelation 17:16 specifically claim the Wild Beast is itself a king, some sort of human rulership, that is made up of this conglomerate of kings (governments).

    Revelation 17:11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

    Your logic has flaws as by definition kings are always heads of their state. Also, scriptures do not teach God will put it into the heart of Satan's mystical kingdom to destroy Satan's mystical kingdom. Demons do not destroy the kingdom of demons, Christ does. That's the flaw in your logic.

    You claim the kings are not human, because if they do not represent human governments they must be angelic or Satanic. If they are human they represent human governments. The Bible claims the kings receive authority from Satan, the Dragon. And yet scriptures do not say these kings are demons. It makes no sense demons would have any intention to destroy Satan's mystical kingdom on Earth. And they certainly did not throw Satan and other demons down to Earth. And yet it is Satan who gave these kings their authority to work together along side this other governmental authority called the Wild Beast. Plus these kings are said to battle with the lamb: Revelation in 17, and Revelation 16 states all the world's kings battle with Christ at Armageddon.


    Scriptures claim God puts in the hearts of these kings to destroy Babylon the Great. God is not putting in the hearts of demons to destroy what you call Satan's mystical system. And what's that anyway? What is Satan's mystical system? That is not a biblical term. It's a term you made up without defining.

    God is not using demons to destroy what you call Satan's mystical system. The 10 kings represent 10 human governments, which probably is a figurative number representing the complete number of governments existing on Earth (as stated at Revelation 16). At that time in some organized group like the United Nations, or NATO today, God will cause these kings to attack and destroy Babylon the Great. Human governments cannot destroy what you claim is Satan's mystical system. Another reason why you make an invalid claim. Human governments can only destroy what is human.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I have not stated what you are claiming, nor used the term "Satan's mystical system".
     
  4. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    You understand that the designation Babylon the Great is symbolic. You understand that the Wild Beast that destroys it is symbolic. You understand that the Dragon that gives the Wild Beast its authority is symbolic. And yet you cannot understand that smoke and burning could be symbolic? Why not?
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agree with your post.


    The same in Daniel 7 and Rev 19 where a beast is burned and that beast is representative of a government or empire. It is mere symbology of something being destroyed not literal burning or literal smoke as you have said.
     
  6. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    See Revelation 22:20 "He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!"


    Does "soon" in that context mean soon or "near" as you are claiming? Of course not. Christ didn't return yet. His kingdom has not destroyed this world and it does not rule over all the world's inhabitants yet, as God's kingdom will-per many Bible scriptures.

    Soon to Christ is not what you claim soon or near means in other parts of Revelation. "LOOK I AM COMING SOON, says it all. Soon's length, or near's length, will only be determined after Christ comes.

    Also, a conclusion that might be attached to your reasoning is the false teaching that Christ gave a sign to denote the nearness of his second coming. That completely contradicts Christ's statement claiming it did not belong to the apostles to know the times and seasons God held under his own jurisdiction. Christ did not give a sign to denote the nearness of his coming in Revelation, or in the first half of Matthew 24 only to give examples that teach Christians will be surprised by his return (both faithful and unfaithful Christians) in the second half of Matthew 24 extending into Matthew 25. That Christ gave such a sign is totally an illogical concept. Doing so he would be refuting his own teaching. And if he gave no sign your definition of "near" holds no authority. Because if his return was near as you state he would have been giving them an indication when his return would occur. That would serve the same purpose as the sign they asked for, which was a sign he denied to give them. He did give a sign preceding Jerusalem's destruction (the surrounding by an army), but the sign that occurs when he returns doesn't occur until his return (sign of the Son of Man in heaven). There will be no advance warning preceding this second act.

    And the poster you were opposing had a valid point. If you don't know what Revelation is about you cannot understand hardly any of it. If Revelation was only a warning of what would happen to Jerusalem you missed the point of the whole letter. Most of Revelation speaks to the end of this world. That is why it ends with, "I am coming soon." Most of it speaks to the time period when Christ comes and what he does to this world, Christians and non Christians. See Revelation 3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." The book or letter speaks of a tribulation happening to the whole world not just Jerusalem.


    See 2 Peter 3 to see what near or soon means to God, with regard to Christ's return. Those scriptures also claim what will occur to this planet when Christ returns.

    2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyedc by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.d11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
     
  7. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    In both instances a person fornicates against God, whether you worship a false god or swear allegiance to a Government in the place of God.

    In Rev. 17 we see False Religion {Harlot} is about to be JUDGED, verse 1 says so. The kings of the earth and the peoples have been made drunk by her "FORNICATION" or false gods, which made the masses drunk with anti-God Harlotry.

    In Rev. 18, we see Satan has been cast down to earth in verse 2, so the Devil that rules Babylon {World's Kingdoms/Nations} are made "DRUNK" by her {Babylon/Satan, the ruler of this World}, and the "MERCHANTS" of the "EARTH" are waxed rich through her abundance.

    Ones about False Religion, and refers to the Harlot as Her.

    The other is about False Governance under Satan, and refers to Babylon {World} as Her. The Merchants lose money because the earth loses 3.5 to 3 billion people at this time, and grasses and trees burn up, along with many other Trump plagues and Vial plagues.
     
  8. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    Revelation 18:23
    "and the light of a lamp
    will shine in you no more,
    and the voice of bridegroom and bride
    will be heard in you no more,
    for your merchants were the great ones of the earth,
    and all nations were deceived by your sorcery."

    In what type of institutions are most people married? What type of worldwide organizations practice any sort of spiritualistic practice at all, practicing spiritual practices, that if unapproved by God, will be considered sorcery by God?

    What type of institutions that are neither political or commercial are labeled by God as this prominent entity (BTG) that it is deceiving every nation on earth? To answer that question consider this, what is God most concerned about when he speaks of deception in scriptures? Obviously he is most concerned with disceptions spread about himself. That's obvious from scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. That's why idolatry is condemned so frequently in scripture.

    Babylon the Great is religion. Religion is the only entity that fits the description of Babylon the Great. Babylon the great is all religion including those called Christian religions. Because religions aren't Christian. Christians are people. All religions teach some false stories about God, and all religions harm some people. All religion will be destroyed to make way for Christ's rule. Individual people Christ chooses will do so with him. These in Christ's church certainly will not do so inside any religious institution existing today or when the world is destroyed. Before Christ's kingdom rules God has religion destroyed to make way for Christ's rule.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  9. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    It does mean soon.
    First, that's a post hoc argument, Second, he did come; he just didn't come as futurists imagine he will come. Third, this matter has already been addressed. You're unnecessarily revisiting content already addressed.
    The world isn't going to be destroyed., and according to Acts 2 Jesus is seated on David's throne and according to Rev. 3:21 Jesus is seated on God's throne.

    Acts 2:29-36 ESV
    “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    Revelation 3:21
    "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne."

    According to the Spirit-indwelt Peter the Davidic prophesies were fulfilled in Acts 2. According to Jesus, the kingdom God came with Jesus in the gospels.

    Mattew 12:28
    "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
    prove it.

    Sure he did. He stated quite plainly it would happen in "this generation" of those to whom he was speaking and he stated repeatedly they would see it. He said he didn't know the day or time but it would happen in "this generation." As I have already stated, the "this generation" is conjugated in the near demonstrative. It cannot be made to mean anything other than the generation to whom he was speak inf and if you all will bother to study the phrase "this generation" in the gospels you'll find it is used time and again to refer to the generation of his first century audience. If you bother to study the usage of that phrase in the prophets you'll see it is tied to the appearance of the Messiah, which...... took place in the first century. "When X happens [then] this generation will see." In the gospels the contingencies are tied to his first century audience.

    Look it up.

    Now Dispensational Premillennialism says prophesy should be read literally but none of you read these texts literally. Your teachers don't tech the text literally.

    Can't have it both ways, folks.

    Yep, and the whole point of that passage was Peter was telling his folks they ought to conduct themselves in holiness and godliness because God isn't slow to fulfill His promises.


    Your reading of the Bible would have Pete saying the following.

    "But do not let this one fact escape the notice of the beloved living in the 21st century, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward those in the 21st century, not wishing for any in the 21st century to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought those in the 21st century to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth in the 21st century, in which righteousness dwells."

    That interpretation renders the text meaningless to everyone between Calvary and the 21st century. As I have stated repeatedly in this discussion one of the first rules of sound exegesis is to understand the text as the author and his original audience would have understood it.


    And, Woke, 2 Peter 3:813 doesn't contain the word "near" or "soon."

    You're off-topic and avoiding the Revelation 1 and 22 texts by changing the topic.... exactly as I said you all would. You came to the discussion late and have repeated all the mistakes the posters before you committed.


    The topic of this op is the identity of the harlot of Revelation who wears purple and scarlet. The first century Christian would have understood that to be a reference to Jerusalem.

    Especially since the would have understood the "near" (or "soon") of Rev. 1:3 and 22:10 to mean near, not 20 or more centuries later.


    Exegete the text first, and then examine history. Not the other way around.
     
  10. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    The harlot riding the Wild Beast is Babylon the Great.

    Revelation 17:

    1" Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and told me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2The kings of the earth were sexually immoral with her, and those who dwell on the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her immorality.”3And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, where I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5On her forehead a mysterious name was written:



    BABYLON THE GREAT,
    THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
    AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
     
  11. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    These NAME TAGS were clues to who the Harlot was, she was not Babylon. These were identifiers.

    MYSTERY
    1.) Babylon the Great {Where Harlotry was at her Zenith}
    2.) Mother of Harlots {Semiramis, who birthed these false religions, married her son Nimrod.
    3.) Abominations of the Earth {Serving any false god is an Abomination unto God}

    These are just clues to WHO the Harlot is, she is not Great Babylon per se.

    Great Babylon = World Governments under Satan's Command.

    The Harlot = False Religion which is at the core of most of the worlds problems.

    If all the world worshiped the true God, we would have Good Governments.

    Rev. 17 is the Babylon Kings {10 Kings in league with the Beast} killing the Harlot.

    Rev. 18 is Babylon {OUR WORLD} getting pelted by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments over a 42 month period known as the Day of the Lord.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Why do you keep saying "Wild Beast" when that term is not in the bible?

    The inscription on the whore's head does not mean that inscription is the whore.

    For example, people will take the name of the beast on their forehead. But that does not mean those people are the beast themselves.
     
  13. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Yes, symbolic of something literal....just like a shadow of something is a picture of the real thing...
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  15. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    You write a lot but say little, because you deny what has already been proven right here, on this site. If you do not even know the world as we know it will be destroyed when Christ comes you might see 2 Peter 3:1-7

    1Beloved, this is now my second letter to you. Both of them are reminders to stir you to wholesome thinking 2by recalling what was foretold by the holy prophets and commanded by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.3Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.a 4“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."


    I am surprised you did not know that. What the destruction means exactly does not support your point. No matter what destruction means in that context your point is proven wrong by another point within the scriptures. The fact that the destruction is worldwide and not isolated to Jerusalem totally refutes your claim that Revelation only speaks to the isolated destruction of Jerusalem. See Rev 3:10, which I already showed you, and you apparently deny. Revelation 3:10 reads, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." The trial coming, which Revelation speaks of, comes to the whole world not Jerusalem.

    Need I say more? Your theory that the destruction in Revelation relates to A.D. 70 is debunked with scriptures from just two places, 2 Peter, and Revelation chapter 3. The rest of Revelation debunks your teaching also.

    Let me ask you, are you a Jew? If you are not then why would you believe God is so concerned with the Jews' welfare over everyone else's welfare that God speaks of this great tribulation as just applying to Jews. Or more precisely I should ask, why are you believing that God will only destroy the Jewish people for doing what people in all nations have done? God is not partial (Acts 10:34). He will not destroy Jews but let everyone else doing the same thing go unpunished.

    And I do not know of any Christians who believe that when Christ comes he will not bring a state of perfection to individuals in his church at that time-when he comes. I also never heard of Christians who believe Christ returns to let the worldwide condition continue just as it was before his coming. Even the Jews didn't believe their Messiah would do that. They believed the Messiah would change their condition when he came. That's one reason some of them didn't believe Jesus. Because he didn't change their situation. See Isaiah chapters 35 and 65.

    But most of all your teaching totally denies the teachings in Revelation chapter 21 that speak of all tears, pain, and death being removed from all people, not just the church of Christ. And those scriptures are inside the very letter that speaks of Babylon the Great, and the very letter that uses the word "near" which hangs you up. When Christ returns he will change this world, and his real church will become new creatures with ability to traverse between heaven and earth. No one has seen any people start to take on everlasting life in a perfect environment on earth since Jerusalem was destroyed. And no one on earth has seen Christ and his bride come down to the earth and start ruling over all people. That also debunks your teaching.

    See Luke 21:8; and 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2. Anyone saying the Lord has come before his return is to be avoided by Christians per those chapters in 2 Thessalonians. Anyone teaching his coming is even imminent in their day is to be avoided per the scripture at Luke 21:8.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  16. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Yes third of the earth was burned up, and third of the tree, and green grass was burned up...but this is Not specifically say is the woman but the earth....unless revelation refers to the harlot as the earth then you have a valid point....
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Plus the only damage that happens to Jerusalem in Rev is 10 percent and that's only from an earthquake not from an army and certainly not from any Romans. Rev also only speaks to the persecution of Christians, not Jews. AD70 is the biggest stumbling block that ever existed and has nothing to do with the book of Rev and not even the Olivet Discourse.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I agree with that much. The harlot is not herself, Mystery Babylon the Great.

    You need to rethink the above, RT. Yes, false religion beginning at the tower of Babel in your reasoning of Babylon the Great. But it is rooted further back in time.

    For example, in Ezekiel 28:13-19, the King of Tyre, came long after the actual person it is referring to in those passages - Satan.

    You need to rethink in bigger terms
    . The anti-Kingdom of God, Satan and his angels' rebellion in heaven, and beginning of sin by Satan. And when man was later created, sin entered the world through one man. And his first son killed his second born son Abel, because he chose not to resist that particular sin. Genesis 4:5-7

    When Jesus returns to earth, He brings the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the nations. Right now, Babylon the Great, Satan's kingdom is ruling over the nations. And has been since Adam and Eve erred and committed the first sin by humans.

    Babylon the Great must be destroyed. It will take place over the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, after he and his angels are cast down to earth from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9. That casting down to earth is what the expression Babylon is fallen, is fallen is referring to - the beginning of the demise of Satan's mystical kingdom, not the tower of babel, albeit the tower of babel was a rebellion against God, but by man.

    The bigger picture is Babylon the Great is the anti-Kingdom of God kingdom of Satan and his angels. It is responsible for all slain upon the earth - because in it was the beginning of sin by Satan.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    RT, the flaw of that reasoning of the Harlot being all false religion is that when the Harlot is destroyed by the ten kings - the false religion of worshiping the beast continues until Jesus returns.

    So the Harlot can't be all false religion. The Harlot is one specific form of religion that has prostituted itself. The Vatican, that has integrated the Semiramis mother/son concept into it's elevation of Mary. The Vatican located in the city of the seven hills.

    It is something that the 7 kings can and will destroy by fire. The 7 kings cannot destroy all false religion - because their own religion of worshiping the beast is not destroyed until Jesus returns.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  20. Woke

    Woke Member Supporter

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    The scripture did not say the Wild Beast becomes a dictator over the ten kings. The scripture says the 10 kings voluntarily give their authority to the beast to accomplish this one task of destroying Babylon the Great. It says they work along with the Wild Beast to do that, not that the kings are forced to. It does not say he is a dictator over them. Nor does it say the kings lose their national sovereignty while doing that.

    Scriptures do claim people all over the world are compelled to follow the Beast. But for governments to destroy all religion that must be necessary. Why else would most people give up their religious practices? In ancient Babylon only Daniel and his four friends refused to do so when that government compelled all people there to do it.The governments of this world will have to force people to give up their religious practices. It is only to fulfill this purpose of God that Revelation claims people are compelled to follow this Beast, as it is only the purpose of God that these governments voluntarily give their authority to the Beast for God's plan to be carried out, the plan of destroying Babylon the Great. Revelation 17:17 states, "for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled." Note they give their authority until the words of God are carried out to destroy Babylon the Great.

    Most Christians I hear teach the Bible believe this Beast is that man of lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thessalonian. I believe the Beast is an antichrist, but I believe most Christians are wrong in believing 2 Thessalonians represents this Beast in Revelation. I believe the man of lawlessness spoken of in Thessalonians is made up of false Christian teachers that have existed since the time Paul wrote that letter of Thessalonians. Just as Paul stated the work of his lawlessness was already present, when Paul wrote the letter. Also see Matthew chapter 7. So while most Christian teachers teach this lawless one is coming as an individual, I believe Paul was claiming a collective group of Christian teachers that would arise inside Christ's church to control practices and teaching inside the church-in all denominations (weeds with wheat).

    There are no scriptures that claim Christ will establish his kingdom over the whole earth shortly after this man of lawlessness makes his presence known as most Christians I hear teach claim. Scriptures in 2 Thessalonians chapters one and two only claim that the man of lawlessness will be revealed (meaning to true Christians) before Christ comes again. There is no mention about the time span between the incident of Christ's return and the revealing of the man of lawlessness.

    And that man of lawlessness of 2 Thessalonians does not come to any natural temple rebuilt in Jerusalem. He instead sets himself down in the temple of God, refuting everything else considered holy, and proclaiming himself God by sitting inside the body of Christ, God's temple, refuting every idea about scripture not taught in their groups, thus they are declaring their teaching is the only way to God. Since Christ claims he is the only way, then by claiming their teaching is the only way they make themselves God, having usurped Christ's position.

    That is what Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2, not some single individual who will start ruling the world in the future. The man of lawlessness never rules the world-per scriptures. Scriptures claim the authority he exercises is inside the church. Because the church is so large and enters into every nation these teachers influence kings and common folks everywhere. Their lawlessness over the centuries causes God to destroy this figurative man at the end of time for this worldly system. He dies with this worldly system. He is killed for the exact same reason God destroyed Jerusalem in A.D 70. The exact same reason Christ was always at odds with religious rulers that eventually killed him is what causes this man of lawlessness' destruction.

    They fight with Christ's real church. Whoever fights with Christ's real church members and does not listen to them does not listen to Christ. Christ's church, like Christ, does not force or coerce people with threats to follow. The man of lawlessness instead claims he (they) are the only way or their teachings are the only way. All of Christ's church members instead point to Christ as the way.

    My belief is that God wrote the Bible subject to different interpretations to see what people who hear it will do with it. Some do nothing. Others who believe it judge everyone not sharing their beliefs about it. Others teach and let Christ judge the response to their teaching, knowing it is not their place to judge.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
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