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Who has the valid Sacraments?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HTacianas, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. .Jeremiah.

    .Jeremiah. Active Member

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    i am wondering why it would even matter

    religions and all their stuff

    if you like the stuff, go for it

    if you don’t, then leave it alone

    i am wondering why any of it matters
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hi, HT.

    I did find that document to be interesting, but only as it explains what the RCC has decreed or decided with regard to other Christian churches. The thinking that lies behind the decisions is "something else."

    Three items caught my attention.

    1. The validity of the sacraments depends on whether or not there is valid Apostolic Succession. No surprise there. But it's purely arbitrary on the part of the RCC.

    She could just almost as well have decreed that a different list of churches was okay after choosing them randomly.

    But there's some interesting sloppiness also. For instance, there is not just one Anglican church body in the world with a single line of Succession. But they or it or whatever Rome thinks Anglicanism is are on the outs. Meanwhile, the Nestorians are quite okay.

    2. The document is intended for church leaders dealing with the important matter of training candidates for church membership. As we see in the document, the insulting term "ecclesial communities" (referring to other denominations) appears in it. For anyone who tries to say that this practice is not common and certainly not engaged in by people in leadership in the RCC, that's refuted here.

    3. The "Masons" are on a list with some churches whose baptisms are considered by Rome to be invalid. The Masonic organizations, as is no secret, are not a religion, however, and do not perform any baptisms, Christian or otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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  5. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Mar 16:16

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Mat 28:19

    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Jhn 6:53

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    1Co 10:16

    The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
     
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    "She could just almost as well have decreed that a different list of churches was okay after choosing them randomly."

    But she didn't. There is a logic behind it that I support. I would support the protestant reformation and the Anglican church if it had been true reforms of the abuses of the Roman Church at that time. But it wasn't a case of merely reforming the church to deal with the abuses, it was a change to the beliefs of Christianity entirely.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I have to reply that that's incorrect. What's more, the Anglican churches differed from the RCC no more than the EOC did and does.

    But if it had been correct, the point I made about the document we read would still stand. It shows us that the RCC doesn't use an accurate and consistent standard when declaring some church bodies to have valid sacraments and others not.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Because we're Christians, and this is stuff that matters?

    This "religious stuff" is about Jesus Christ, His Gospel, His Church, and His word.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  9. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I don't see things in those terms (valid/invalid), so I am glad that my Church is not specifically mentioned. I didn't leave Rome on purpose only to find out later that I never really left because XYZ piece of Roman sophistry.

    Also, I think it is pretty stupid to specify of the Church of the East that they are "formerly called Nestorians", as though that was or is a big mistake when the Nestorians themselves, if you listen to them explaining what they think, still completely believe in Nestorius' god-mutilating theology and defend the man as having been correct and still being correct. Here's what their bishop in Lebanon and a few others have to say about it, from a section of the episode focusing on the Assyrians in the Lebanese TV series "Sects of Lebanon":

     
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I have asked before for any information regarding the reasoning behind the Thirty Nine Articles of Faith of the Anglican church. I was answered by someone who I take to be Anglican clergy who could not answer my question. Offered to discuss the Thirty Nine Articles but could not explain -nor even give me any resources as to- the reasoning behind them.

    In all of that is the answer to your question.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I appreciate you taking the opportunity to explain. I am willing to comment and help you with this, but frankly, "explain the reasoning behind the Thirty-nine Articles" is somewhat confusing to me. What about the Articles doesn't sit well with you? What does "the reasoning behind them" mean? (It's a statement of faith, so....?) And of course there are all sorts of topics addressed in the Articles.

    I could take a stab at an answer, but I think asking you for some clarification first will make for a better reply.
     
  12. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Someone, somewhere, sat down at some time and created the Thirty Nine Articles. Why did they do that and what do they base them on?

    I can explain to you the reasoning behind every line of the Nicene Creed from start to finish. Surely someone who has wagered their immortal soul for all eternity on the Thirty Nine Articles can explain the reasoning behind them.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The Articles date from the period after the reign of Henry VIII when the Roman Church was hopeful of retaking England and Continental Protestantism was hopeful of making inroads. Henry had prevented both during his time as sovereign.

    The Articles are mainly the work of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the presiding bishop of the English Church (as had long been the case), but they were also approved of by the Church itself and the Crown.

    They are arranged in a systematic way IMO and, in each entry, the Scriptural justification for the correct belief or practice is explicitly applied or else reflected in the wording.

    Most people consider the Articles to represent the faith of Reformed Catholicism, i.e. a middle-way between the extremes of both Zwinglianism and Papal Catholicism, while also preserving the historically Catholic nature of the church.

    There are so many topics taken up in the Articles (Scripture, the nature of the Church, the Trinity, the sacraments, clergy, the Creeds, and so on) that I really have to recommend you read them for yourself.

    Of course we can. But it would be a much bigger task than explaining the reasoning behind every line in the Nicene Creed.

    Candidly, I don't care to write that book here on this forum, though. And to do so only because one person who is merely curious issued a challenge? I hope that what I did write here in reply to you is of some help, however. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  14. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your effort. I truly do. But I feel like I already know more about the Thirty Nine Articles than you do. Please don't take that as an insult.

    But let's take the one I am primarily interested in, which is Article XIX:

    XIX. Of the Church.
    The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.

    As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.

    Based on that Article, what became of Christianity? Where did it go? How does that declaration differ from the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses? Or the Mormons? Or any other splinter group that has made the same decision?

    If those Churches "erred", how did they err? What was their error? When did it occur?
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I'll try not to do so.

    Still, I have to say that you first seemed to represent yourself as a person who is confused about even the basics of Anglicanism and its history, and that that's the situation you find yourself in despite your best efforts. When, however, I offered an answer that I thought appropriate for a person who is of that level, I'm told that it was inadequate because you are actually very knowledgeable when it comes to Anglicanism.

    Your reply here doesn't suggest that you are, but now there's no telling what the story really is or what you want to find out, so I'm not going ahead with this. Sorry.
     
  16. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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  17. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That typically happens, just like many Protestants don't have a clue how to classify ANY of the Orthodox I think Catholics don't often know how to classify the Oriental Orthodox. So we Catholics might tend to inaccurately lump the Oriental Orthodox in with the rest of the Orthodox and some Protestants will lump the Orthodox in with the Catholics. An understandable set of mistakes.
     
  18. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    By “Nestorians” they are actually referring to the Assyrian Church of the East, whose sacramental theology concerning Holy Orders, Baptism and the Eucharist is closer to that of Rome than the Church of England, and which has an all male priesthood and celibate bishops. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East will receive converts from each other without Christmation under the ancient canons.

    Actually Albert Pike, the notorious author of the Southern form of the Scottish Rite, who was very much into the occult, and exceedingly anti Catholic (his 17th degree, “Knight Kadosh” has the recipient stomp on a replica of the Papal Tiara) did write a ceremony of Masonic Baptism, in which the officient would make a triangle in oil on the forehead of the infant, but to my knowledge it has never been used.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
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  19. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Why is it that Copts and Assyrians can’t just get along? Two ethno-religious minorities, both Christians persecuted by Muslims, but united by a mutual disdain for each other stretching back over a thousand years. Interestingly the Syriac Orthodox, who are the Christians most closely related to the Copts and whose Patriarch the Copts commemorate in every liturgy (an honor the Armenians and Ethiopians do not benefit from) have usually gotten along very well with the Assyrians. In fact, when the legendary Maphrian (Syriac Orthodox Catholicos of Mesopotamia) Mar Gregorios bar Hebraeus died in an Assyrian town on the way back to Dayro d Mar Mattai, his friend, the Assyrian Catholicos of the East, led the funeral for him, with 4,000 Assyrians in attendance, in addition to a few dozen Syriac Orthodox.
     
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Is anyone interested is discussing the OP subject instead of the 39 articles, Catholicism vs Orthodox, etc?
     
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