Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

[HatGuy]

No one need "imply" there is some hidden truth.

Jesus says it is hidden plainly,

and Jesus says that only when the Father reveals it is it received by a man. (or woman/ or little children) .

Okay, so correct me if wrong but your take on this then is that the OT should be primarily understood allegorically (i.e. has hidden meanings which are the real point, not the literal meaning)?

If so, how comes you came to such a conclusion?

 

[HatGuy]

The text itself is so old and the earliest copies are so far away from the time of writing that I would say no. We have no certainity regarding the Old testament text. Only tradition.

Which is OK, because the Old Testament was not given for us.

This is an interesting conclusion.

What led you to this conclusion?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I agree in principle, but was all of the OC actually given by angels (not Yahweh directly) and does this mean that it is not a pure form of God's morality?

I can only speculate on that. The 10 commandments were direct and those are what Jesus sums the law and prophets to. God’s word (small w) includes the precepts of human thought, plus satan thoughts (or knowledge of good and evil) as well as the thoughts of God.

Psalms is a good example, the Holy Spirit sometimes spoke and other times it’s human thoughts.

Speculating further I am of the opinion that some are still directed by angels and others by God personally so not much has changed imo.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It is implied but also not stated directly. He says "the scriptures also say..." but does not say "God says," indicating there is authority in the OT but the question still remains - is all of it God's instructions, given directly by God, or only certain parts of it?

Your assumptions are not convincing, if you read the verse itself, which refers to 'the Lord thy God'..

 

[faroukfarouk]

I can only speculate on that. The 10 commandments were direct and those are what Jesus sums the law and prophets to. God’s word (small w) includes the precepts of human thought, plus satan thoughts (or knowledge of good and evil) as well as the thoughts of God.

Psalms is a good example, the Holy Spirit sometimes spoke and other times it’s human thoughts.

Speculating further I am of the opinion that some are still directed by angels and others by God personally so not much has changed imo.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3.16).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3.16).

& is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
for the purpose of
that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

What comment are you trying to make?

 

[faroukfarouk]

& is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
for the purpose of
that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

What comment are you trying to make?

Hi; I may have misunderstood, but I thought you said only some of the Psalms were inspired of God.

 

[solid_core]

This is an interesting conclusion.

What led you to this conclusion?

If you mean the fact that the Old testament is not for us, its in the New Testament, for example in the writings of Paul.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is there a way of knowing from the original text?

Did the educated Scribes and Pharisees "know" the truth and receive the Messiah Jesus ? "from the original text" ?
Did the Apostles and faithful disciples ?

No, not from the text (original nor otherwise).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hi; I may have misunderstood, but I thought you said only some of the Psalms were inspired of God.

David’s lithium moments don’t seem to be anything but uncertainty.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The text itself is so old and the earliest copies are so far away from the time of writing that I would say no. We have no certainity regarding the Old testament text. Only tradition.

Is the Father able to reveal the truth to His people ?

 

[HatGuy]

Your assumptions are not convincing, if you read the verse itself, which refers to 'the Lord thy God'..

I am not trying to convince of anything, really, but simply to have a healthy discussion on the Law and how Jesus treated it - and what inspiration means.

I'm not averse to the idea that the OT commandments were all of God's commandments, but I am then wondering about where the particularly violent commandments fit in.

For example, in the verse you stated, Jesus is quoting from Deut 6. Perhaps this is a commandment directly from God. But is this from Deut 20 directly from God as well?

"10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

 

[HARK!]

Numbers 15:
1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.
17 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.
37 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If you mean the fact that the Old testament is not for us, its in the New Testament, for example in the writings of Paul.

Paul was very much dealing with OT consistently. John rose above law to deal with God directly.

 

[HatGuy]

I can only speculate on that. The 10 commandments were direct and those are what Jesus sums the law and prophets to. God’s word (small w) includes the precepts of human thought, plus satan thoughts (or knowledge of good and evil) as well as the thoughts of God.

Psalms is a good example, the Holy Spirit sometimes spoke and other times it’s human thoughts.

Speculating further I am of the opinion that some are still directed by angels and others by God personally so not much has changed imo.

It's an interesting line of thought, this.

How does one discern, however, what is of God and what is human thoughts in the Bible? (p.s., what did you mean by Satan's thoughts in the Bible?)

 

[HARK!]

I am not trying to convince of anything, really, but simply to have a healthy discussion on the Law and how Jesus treated it - and what inspiration means.

(CLV) Jn 12:49
seeing that I speak not from Myself, but the Father Who sends Me, He/ has given Me the precept, what I may be saying and what I should be speaking.

Most of what Yahshua spoke came directly from the Torah.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's an interesting line of thought, this.

How does one discern, however, what is of God and what is human thoughts in the Bible? (p.s., what did you mean by Satan's thoughts in the Bible?)

Line of reasoning ... where does it point? To humans exalting themselves (leaving their place to usurp God) or God related to His glory?

The OT is multifaceted in being allegorical as to the outcome of sin and historical so rightly dividing the word mhh, we’ll have to wait for Christ’s return for the true story I suppose.

 

[HatGuy]

Numbers 15:
1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.
17 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.
37 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying.

I know, but let's consider Deut 24. Here, Moses outlays the divorce laws that Jesus explicitly states MOSES gave, but yet it was not God's intention for divorce. (Matthew 5).

So the question then is, were certain laws from Moses and not from God? And if so, how do we know? Or were they all from God but He was accommodating their culture at certain points?

 

[HatGuy]

Did the educated Scribes and Pharisees "know" the truth and receive the Messiah Jesus ? "from the original text" ?
Did the Apostles and faithful disciples ?

No, not from the text (original nor otherwise).

Ok, so what is the role of the OT in your life / theology?

 

[HARK!]

Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

False dichotomy.

YHWH gave the law to Moshe. Moshe gave the law that YHWH gave him.