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Who exactly are 'The Jews'?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Cackles, Feb 14, 2015.

  1. Cackles

    Cackles Guest

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    Ok. I was listening to a debate tonight and they said that 'Jews' are not used in the Bible as a word, and do not refer to the context that we use today.

    They said 'Hebrews' is a more correct term but someone else said that they didnt share that language abroad in synagogues during Pauls writings.

    They said the Jew term refered to 'locals' in Judea and not the greater majority of Hebrews outside Israel.

    This lady said that Jews are actually locals who deny Christ and by being a Jew the primary goal is to carry that torch. If they accpet Christ they cant be a Jew.

    Another person said there is one Jew only under Christ as king of the Jews.

    Another said theres no such thing as Jews anymore.

    So I dont know what to think. i'd like to hear what you guys think.
     
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  2. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    Exodus 1:1-5(NKJV)
    1Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob:
    2Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah;
    3Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin;
    4Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher.
    5All those who were descendants of Jacob were seventy persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already).

    the jews are simply the descendants of the fourth born of israel - judah.

    jew is short for judah
    !
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    What sort of bizzaro debate were you listening to?

    The English word "Jew" is descended from Iuw, which linguistically came about due to the Norman French invasion of Britain in the 11th century. This word is related to the Old French Giu and ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. And finally the Latin is derived from the Greek word Ioudaios, the Hellenization of the Aramaic Yehudhai and Hebrew Y'hudi. That is to say, a person from the Tribe and/or Kingdom of Judah (Hebrew Y'hudah).

    Today's Jews are Jews just as the Jews were Jews during the time of King David, or the Babylonian Exile, or the time of Jesus--with our Lord Jesus being a Jew.

    Judaism is a religion, and as such converts to Judaism who are without any biological lineage to Jacob are still Jews by their conversion. This has always been the case, an ancient example would be the story of Ruth as found in the Bible.

    Even still with the advent of modern genetics and the deciphering of the human genome studies have demonstrated that different historic Jewish communities the world over, whether Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or Yemenite (to name just four) all show similar genetic markers which are shared with other Levantine people groups and thus demonstrate a Levantine origin.

    Thus all suggestions that modern Jews are not "really Jews" is pure hokum. They are Jews because they practice Judaism, which is sufficient enough; but further genetic evidence demonstrates Jewish populations as having a biological lineage that meet up together with other historic peoples of the Middle East. If Biblical history is true, then today's Jews are, indeed, the descendents of those mentioned in Scripture.

    Christian history has enough blood and guilt through a painful history of antisemitism, and it's about time we kill that demon.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    In the New Covenant writings (written by mostly ethnically Jewish people) "the Jews" are those who still insist on practicing the Judaism of the Rabbis and leaders who remained opposed to the New Covenant in Christ (Messiah)...

    Thus not an ethnic or racist nametag but an identification with Covenant
     
  5. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    what you have written here is very misleading as to attribute the jews to an ideology rather than descendants of a certain man, namely judah.
     
  6. Cackles

    Cackles Guest

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    YES. This what people were saying last night. People also claimed that the bible uses another word to refer to Jews when speaking about the diaspora at that time. Im not sure what it was. Hebrews? Cant remeber.

    Saying The Jews would be like me calling Germans 'The ____'s. One is a people group, the other is a group within that people group who have a certain ideology. Imagine 2000 years passing, and me calling Germans 'The ___'s. Of course I wouldnt do that. If i read back on a history book and it says 'The ____'s did this and that, i wouldn't look at Germans today and point some finger at them.

    My issue is, there is a germany today. There is no ____'s today. Just like there was Jews back then, there are no DNA Jews today. Folklore aside, do some research on the truth of the issue - wherever Jews reside, they have the same DNA as their kinsman. Go look it up. Saying otherwise and you simply lying to yourself. Check everyon in the world and you'll find levite and cohen markers because their not real. Last I heard 25% of all of Spain is now Jewish.. I mean.. Its just silly and these projects come out of small teams from an Israeli University. People trying to prove their Jewish.. Its funny online people getting thei results back and it showing their 99% Polish and they start to break down the categories in the 1% and do nothing but focus on that.it's real sad actually to view who you are off a DNA test but they do it to themselves.

    Like.. Here we are talking about religion, and people come in trying to say that God holds special favor with a goup because they have magic blood inside them.. The 'God favors me blood'. This means they have their own tree of life just for them. It also leads to metaphysical dualism which causes us to worship people, and them to worship themselves. Looking through history this has never been the case. What happened recently? This dualism must have started in the 1900's from Darby and this doctrine of dispensational theology. Then John Haggee the german rises up and claims that if we bless this people group, we will be blessed. This is metaphysical dualism plain and simple and we've just moved from religion into tribal paganism. We start to woship the creation rather than the creator.

    I'm just amazed when it comes to DNA how people actually believe the nonsense being thrown at them. It's simply unreal.
     
  7. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Yeah, following the blood is like following the money.
    It was all part of a character building experience called the OT.
    It's a new day with a new deal so we... follow The Spirit.
     
  8. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    You didn't name the source of controversy, the Khazars.
    Besides, the term "Jew" is one that dates from the 'schizm' or civil war after Solomon, during I think it was Rehoboam's reign.
    So the united tribes were Israel, and the Jerusalem occupying tribes were "Jews".
    So the level of complexity in these terms adds to the possibility of those who don't know the nuances, being fractally wrong.

    Fractal wrongness - RationalWiki
     
  9. Cackles

    Cackles Guest

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    Yes that's what they were debating. The Bible says The Jews, but it seems to have been lost in what they would have undertood it to mean at that time.

    As I said, todays Jews.. Well, let me say I feel there's a STRONG possibility that most who just 'appeared' in eastern Europe were Christian converts. They were legalistic fenatics and the Church couldnt contain them. This was a result of the reformation and sola scriptura. These people are still around today and if land citizenshp was not tied to Israel and Jews were not actively discouraging conversion, the People today would be jews by now wothout a doubt and number in the millions.
     
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Great post!
    The Nation of Judah consisted of Judah, Benjamin and the priestly tribe of Levi after the Solomon split in the OT. [Those 3 tribes are also mentioned in Revelation, but Judah is shown 1st instead of 4th]

    Reve 7:
    (judah)"I will praise the Lord (reuben)He has looked on me (gad)granted good fortune. (asher)Happy am I (naphtali) wrestling God is (manasseh)making me to forget. (simeon)God hears me and is (levi)joined to me. He has (Issachar)purchased me (zebulun)a dwelling. (joseph)God will add to me the (benjamin)Son of His right hand."

    Paul also mentioned his life in "Judaism":

    Galatians 1:13,14
    For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism,
    how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
    I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

    Here is a very informative site on the word "Jew" for those interested:

    History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

    The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

    In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

    Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.

    The history of the origin of the word "Jew" in the English language leaves no doubt that the 18th century "Jew" is the 18th century contracted and corrupted English word for the 4th century Latin "Iudaeus" found in St. Jerome's Vulgate Edition. Of that there is no longer doubt.


    John 7:1, "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him."

    According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."
    The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."



    The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets, a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea. A Judean. But a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the new word "Jew" which is not the understanding intended by the Scripture of truth. Those who call themselves Jews today falsely imply they are somehow descendants of the tribes of Israel and chosen of God. Yet few of them are Jews as they are not "Judeans," or residents of Judea.

    So if modern day so-called Jews are not the Jews of the Bible, who are they? When asked, "Who is Israel? - Who is a Jew?" the Israeli Government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) unhesitatingly answered:
    .................






    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2015
  11. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Ain't nobody got time for hesitation.
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The actual Khazars though ostensibly Jewish because their Khan and at least some of the ruling converted to Judaism are really only used as part of the conspiracy theory to say that Jews aren't Jews. It's also a demonstration of ignorance concerning just how widespread the Diaspora is and has been. The assumption of proponents of the Khazar theory seems to be that only the Ashkenazim are Jews and the Ashkenazim are actually Khazars--ignoring completely the Mizrahim, Sephardim, as well as the Ethiopian, Yemenite, and Malabar Jews.

    So yes, sure, that the Khazar conspiracy theorists use the Khazars to to put forward their insane claims is true enough; but it remains precisely that; insane claims. The same sort of people who put forward the Khazar theory are often the same sort of people who start talking about the Protocols and some cabal of powerful Jewish bankers etc.

    The point remains that crazy remains crazy.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. Cackles

    Cackles Guest

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    BINGO!! You found it!! I knew this must have been the explanation!
     
  14. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Not really for if this were the case for the usage by Matthew, Mark, John, Paul etc., then they would be speaking of Jesus and some of themselves, and I had qualified my meaning by when THEY refer to "the Jews"...

    But yes you are correct and in the Bible it first occurs only after the Babylonian captivity and was a term for those of the Kingdom of Judah (which included some Levites and Benjamites) who had been captives there and had now returned to rebuild the Temple...but by Jesus time it had become generalized for all who practiced Judaism as members of the Covenant made at Horeb through Moses...

    Paul
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    "And Pilat axide hym, and seide, Art thou kyng of Jewis? And he answeride, and seide, Thou seist." - Luke 23:3, Wycliffe Bible, c. 1395 AD

    "Ye worschipen that ye knowen not; we worschipen that that we knowen; for helthe is of the Jewis." - John 4:22, ibid.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    And, "ya snooze, ya lose"

    Acts 20:9
    A young man named Eutychus, who was sitting in a window, began to sink off into a deep sleep as Paul kept speaking longer and longer.
    Overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.




    .
     
  17. Cackles

    Cackles Guest

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    I don't understand. This guy was talking about something along this line where 100 years before Jesus came other people came from somewhere and it explained why Jesus didnt consider them Judah.. Something like that i cant remember. Then Paul implies it would be great for Judah to come back.. Something like 'what a homecoming this would be'. But it wasnt a future prophecy, he was discussing branches getting grafted in.

    Hey wait a minute. Maybe the whole secret of salvation if from the secret of the 'Jews'. Think about it.. YES!! It just came to me. Ok.. Listen.. If people DON'T understand who is a Jew - they will be in heresy and have a 'perverted' doctrine that prevents salvation, or makes it alot harder.

    Think about it. Salvation is of the Jews. But what is a Jew? It seems no one is clear. However, I'm suggesting, if we dont get tot he bottom of this seriosuly (im not joking), it will taint and threaten our own doctine, belief, and even salvation.

    I've been a dispensationalist for years without even knowing why I was. I supported building the 3rd Temple and didnt know why. Thank God for me deciding to come on this forum, one of you guys kinf flipped the switch and helped change my life and salvation.

    I cant remeber which one of you, but knowing truths of critically important issues effects my salvation, my wifes, and my two kids. My root was bad, and i was able to cut some of it off thanks to you guys.

    This will affect my wife, kids, and their kids. This information could have saved my kids from future divorce and mistakes. Their still under 4, but growing up with bad theology of metaphysical dualism could have effected their choices in life.

    Whoever took me out of the bondage of that bad theology will be rewarded in heavan. Not just me, but my children, and their children. You get held responsible for all of those blessings. Stats show that families who have no history of divorce, as soon as the first divorce happens, their kids, and their kids have a MUCH higher chance of divorce, drug abuse, depression, unemployment, criminal record, etc. All it takes is that one divorce to trigger the dominos down the generation.

    Likewise, if you HELP people spot out their errors, it also has a massive effect on them, how they raise their kids, and their generations and humanisty as a whole. It just came to me thanks to you guys - if Jesus died for our sins, why am I supporting a 3rd temple so we can start animal sacrifices again? I never even thought about that blasphemy. I just supported it to fit in and be right wing. I used to run around saying 'the Jews bless any country they're in'. But honestly now i think that breaks a LOT of God's laws and creates a dualism. It also causes me to put Idols before God.

    Here's a quick rundown of what almost all of Judaism says today:

    -We were led out of Egypt and became Jews at Mt. Saini
    -We settled in Judah, but God favored our tribe.
    -Thus, only Judah lasted as Jews. The other tribes were idolaters and became goyim like everyone else.
    -Everything was great until Jesus came.
    -He caused a war to happen and for the temple to be destroyed.
    -Thousands to 1 million Jews were slaughtered and killed at that time because of Jesus.
    -We were persacuted all over for killing Jesus.
    -We were driven from our land into exile.
    -We seemed to live at peace through history wilth Muslims (a huge slap in the face to Christians).
    -When the Bible came out, People accused Jews of killing Jesus. We were slaughtered and killed wherever we went (they call these 'pogroms' - a sort of mini genocide).
    -We survived all of this because we have special favor from God. He protected us since Egypt, and now Israel has favor and protection.

    While this makes for simplistic fan-fiction storyline, or a peasant folklore tale by the fireside, the DNA and common sense shows otherwise and I feel we should be more serious about this topic because it really is at the core of things if salvation is of the Jews.

    It could be CRITICALLY important to find out who Jews really are and get to the bottom of this. I'm talking about Judah, Hebrews, Jews, todays Jews, Yahuda, God Fearers. This topic could be far more important than we realize. Look, if we are shallow and silly enough to think that out of Egypt Judah was established until present day, with nothing else ever happening in Judah, then we're being silly and irrational. Maybe God is expecting us to figure this out because I'll tell you, the plans are under way to start animal sacrifices again.
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Ironically, Judas also comes from the greek word for "judah", so I suppose that would make him a type of "antichrist" in some ways, essentially Judah vs Judah. Remember, Satan was working thru Judas


    John 14:30
    "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming the ruler of this world, and in Me, not he is having anything

    Mark 14:43
    And immediately, while He was still speaking, Judas/ioudaV <2455>, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, is coming from the Chief-Priests and the Scribes and the Elders.

    Matt 26:49
    "Then Judas quickly stepped up to Jesus and said, "Hello, Rabbi!" and kissed him."
    50 "The yet Jesus said to him, "comrade! why are thou here?"
    Then they coming, they cast the hands upon the Jesus, and hold/seize Him."

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7328728/
    John 14 and the "ruler/chief" of World




    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2015
  19. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    John 3:

    1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    Acts 22:

    39. But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

    Romans 9:

    3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Romans 11:

    1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2 Corinthians 11:

    22. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.

    No matter how many years one might profess one has been "in the faith," the fact remains that anyone unable to seek these things out in Scripture does not know what he is talking about and will easily be misled, even by those who do, who ignore it, that they might glory in their oh so great external sources of information.

    Hebrews 5:

    11. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
    12. For when for the time [you've put in] ye ought to be teachers [by now, I find that], ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
    13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
    14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even [in other words,] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Smile, God loves you ;)
     
  20. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Book 'em Danoh!
     
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