Who else is a Bible-believing Democratic voter?

LoAmmi

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They were also the ones that failed to see Jesus in scriptures and still fail to see him in scriptures. :thumbsup:

Well, I'm obviously going to think that they didn't see that because it isn't there and you're going to disagree with me. I'm talking about language here.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I have never met anyone of any party who "advocates for abortion". I believe that abortion should be legal and safe and available and the woman's informed choice. But most of all it should be rare.

Let me put it like this. Women died in the Bible giving birth. God did not tell them to end the child's life because it would result in the mothers death.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Wow. A lot has been written here in the past few hours while I was away from my desk.

Somebody asked, "What part of the Bible?"

Answer: ALL of it. That's one of the things that I want to put into my book. Interpreting the Bible is not mysterious and hard, but it isn't as simple as opening to a random verse and reading what it says out loud. There are some basic rules for interpreting Scripture that actually do make sense, but which many people who call themselves "Bible-believing" don't seem to have been taught. For example, you don't just take a verse from the Old Testament and assume it's for the church. Things changed when Jesus came along. If they hadn't, then Christians would still not be allowed to eat pork (or shrimp, or catfish, or rabbit. . .); they would still have to offer animal sacrifices; they would still be allowed to take a rebellious and disobedient son and have him executed by stoning. . .you get my drift. The Law of Moses is not binding on Christians. But it does reveal many things about God's character that help us to understand general principles of godly behavior. More later.

As far as thinking that it is impossible to support the Democratic party. . .some good points have been raised, but by that reasoning, it is just as impossible to support the Republican party, which advances policies which are just as hateful to God, but for different reasons. Frankly, the easiest course of action is to condemn both parties and refuse to have anything to do with politics at all. In fact, that’s exactly what a lot of Fundamentalists did back in the 1920’s and 30’s.

If you want a snapshot of what I see wrong with each party, let's begin with Jesus' teaching that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and might, and the other commandment like it is to love your neighbor as yourself. You could say, with some fairness, that Republicans are more likely to focus on loving God, but they really lack when it comes to loving one's neighbor. Democrats are big on loving one's neighbor, but they don't want to be bothered with loving God. That's a 50% score for both sides, which is an F for each. But now there's a catch: the Apostle John writes very emphatically that anybody who says he loves God but does not love his brother is a liar, and does not in fact love God. So the Republicans forfeit their 1 point, and get a zero.

OK, that's a little bit of an oversimplification. But I do want to establish that for a Christian to decide how to deal with the world (which, yes, is said to be Satan's dominion, as one person pointed out above) takes some real thought and prayer. It's not only about abortion. Yes, abortion is an important issue, but I maintain that it is not necessarily murder. And I believe I can support that from the Bible, not just from human emotion. Then we can get into the part about favoring the rich over the poor as the Republicans do, but which James absolutely condemns.

So, let's continue the discussion here. Let's do some real thinking (using the Bible with faith, and yet carefully and with reverence). And let's allow people to express opposing opinions without going all Pharisee on them. Let’s speak what we believe to be the truth, but let’s do it in love. Christians are allowed to have different opinions and still love each other. The Apostle Paul said so.

Evan
 
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Strathos

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Yes, I know what communism is. I'm wearing my Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn shirt right now so that must be proof. What you say above is correct, the U.S. is not a communist country and does not resemble one yet. But the ideology is here, it's strong, and it dominates Universities. There are many communists in government, mostly on the Dem side, and they certainly won't be openly admitting it, but many were members of and/or sympathetic to the Weather Underground and if you view their political imagry (especially that of both Clinton and Obama) it's directly copied from Stalin and Mao... I'll go ahead and call people commies. I live in Southern California where the govt is trying to take over the telecom companies next...

Sounds like a baseless conspiracy theory to me.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Wow. A lot has been written here in the past few hours while I was away from my desk.

Somebody asked, "What part of the Bible?"

Answer: ALL of it. That's one of the things that I want to put into my book. Interpreting the Bible is not mysterious and hard, but it isn't as simple as opening to a random verse and reading what it says out loud. There are some basic rules for interpreting Scripture that actually do make sense, but which many people who call themselves "Bible-believing" don't seem to have been taught. For example, you don't just take a verse from the Old Testament and assume it's for the church. Things changed when Jesus came along. If they hadn't, then Christians would still not be allowed to eat pork (or shrimp, or catfish, or rabbit. . .); they would still have to offer animal sacrifices; they would still be allowed to take a rebellious and disobedient son and have him executed by stoning. . .you get my drift. The Law of Moses is not binding on Christians. But it does reveal many things about God's character that help us to understand general principles of godly behavior. More later.

As far as thinking that it is impossible to support the Democratic party. . .some good points have been raised, but by that reasoning, it is just as impossible to support the Republican party, which advances policies which are just as hateful to God, but for different reasons. Frankly, the easiest course of action is to condemn both parties and refuse to have anything to do with politics at all. In fact, that’s exactly what a lot of Fundamentalists did back in the 1920’s and 30’s.

If you want a snapshot of what I see wrong with each party, let's begin with Jesus' teaching that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and might, and the other commandment like it is to love your neighbor as yourself. You could say, with some fairness, that Republicans are more likely to focus on loving God, but they really lack when it comes to loving one's neighbor. Democrats are big on loving one's neighbor, but they don't want to be bothered with loving God. That's a 50% score for both sides, which is an F for each. But now there's a catch: the Apostle John writes very emphatically that anybody who says he loves God but does not love his brother is a liar, and does not in fact love God. So the Republicans forfeit their 1 point, and get a zero.

OK, that's a little bit of an oversimplification. But I do want to establish that for a Christian to decide how to deal with the world (which, yes, is said to be Satan's dominion, as one person pointed out above) takes some real thought and prayer. It's not only about abortion. Yes, abortion is an important issue, but I maintain that it is not necessarily murder. And I believe I can support that from the Bible, not just from human emotion. Then we can get into the part about favoring the rich over the poor as the Republicans do, but which James absolutely condemns.

So, let's continue the discussion here. Let's do some real thinking (using the Bible with faith, and yet carefully and with reverence). And let's allow people to express opposing opinions without going all Pharisee on them. Let’s speak what we believe to be the truth, but let’s do it in love. Christians are allowed to have different opinions and still love each other. The Apostle Paul said so.

Evan

Who says the Republicans don't love their neighbor? Are you talking about illegal immigration which is ILLEGAL by means of the Laws of the Land? And as such people entering the country should be expected to obey said laws as all natural born citizens are.

Or what about protecting the people of your own nation first from any danger, foreign or domestic.

There is a huge difference between loving your neighbor and being foolish and allowing/encouraging lawlessness
 
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LoAmmi

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Question for you regarding abortion. I don't like abortion. Because of that, I seek that there are programs available to women who would make the abortion decision due to financial reasons. I think it's a bad thing that women make the decision to abort because they don't know if they can afford to take care of the child. Or if they can't take care of it with the other children they have. That would drastically reduce number of abortions. I support those over making it illegal because I think that doesn't work. So, I tend to support liberals over conservatives because most conservatives I've talked to do not tend to favor those types of programs.
 
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JackRT

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It troubles me to read blanket statements that there are communists in the Democratic Party or that Democrats are anti-God. Similar distasteful statements could be made about the Republicans but they would be just as unhelpful.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Question for you regarding abortion. I don't like abortion. Because of that, I seek that there are programs available to women who would make the abortion decision due to financial reasons. I think it's a bad thing that women make the decision to abort because they don't know if they can afford to take care of the child. Or if they can't take care of it with the other children they have. That would drastically reduce number of abortions. I support those over making it illegal because I think that doesn't work. So, I tend to support liberals over conservatives because most conservatives I've talked to do not tend to favor those types of programs.

So what's the question?
 
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JackRT

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Question for you regarding abortion. I don't like abortion. Because of that, I seek that there are programs available to women who would make the abortion decision due to financial reasons. I think it's a bad thing that women make the decision to abort because they don't know if they can afford to take care of the child. Or if they can't take care of it with the other children they have. That would drastically reduce number of abortions. I support those over making it illegal because I think that doesn't work. So, I tend to support liberals over conservatives because most conservatives I've talked to do not tend to favor those types of programs.

I agree. Poverty is the most potent abortifacient in the world today, even in the USA.
 
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camille70

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Question for you regarding abortion. I don't like abortion. Because of that, I seek that there are programs available to women who would make the abortion decision due to financial reasons. I think it's a bad thing that women make the decision to abort because they don't know if they can afford to take care of the child. Or if they can't take care of it with the other children they have. That would drastically reduce number of abortions. I support those over making it illegal because I think that doesn't work. So, I tend to support liberals over conservatives because most conservatives I've talked to do not tend to favor those types of programs.

Exactly. If preventing abortions was the ultimate goal, then sexual education, contraception, preventing pregnancy etc, would be supported. Often though there is a goal of punishing a woman for not "living right" and having premarital sex, and also in some cases white supremacists ideology worried about white people becoming a minority due to low birth rates.

If people want to end abortions, those programs need to be championed, as well as affordable healthcare, workplace reforms to make it easier for new mothers to maintain their jobs, return to work, and get leave if needed, reasonable child care, as well as helping mothers who are low income to be able to feed their children. "Abortion is evil" and "save the child" applies right up until the child exits the birth canal, then if the mother needs help she is a welfare queen leeching off the working taxpayers who never should have gotten pregnant with a child she couldn't afford in the first place, so she needs to find some bootstraps and get a job. They can't have it both ways.
 
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Cearbhall

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It's terrifying to me that anyone who understands the 'fundamentals' of Christianity would push to support a political party that is mostly communist atheists
Oh please. On a global political spectrum, there's barely any difference between U.S. Democrats and Republicans.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I liked Evan, he had some local issues that were a bit of baggage for him, but he was essentially sane, willing to listen, learn, admit mistakes. The problem I have with voting 3rd party is that only one of two people were going to win, and Trump was such a danger, IMO that any vote not going for Hillary, made it possible to put someone dangerous in charge of our country, which is exactly what happened. He is unstable beyond belief.
Trump is unstable and untrustworthy. Bad news for America. Hillary was untrustworthy and crooked. Neither fit for the job. Voting for one to stop the other, which I think most people did, only guaranteed an unfit president, which is exactly what happened. And would have happened if Hillary won instead.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Who says the Republicans don't love their neighbor? Are you talking about illegal immigration which is ILLEGAL by means of the Laws of the Land? And as such people entering the country should be expected to obey said laws as all natural born citizens are.

Or what about protecting the people of your own nation first from any danger, foreign or domestic.

There is a huge difference between loving your neighbor and being foolish.

No, I am not talking primarily about immigration. But it is, in fact, a case in point. And here is why I am sympathetic to the Mexicans.

First off, I believe that laws should be written fairly and reasonably. Then, once written, they should be strictly enforced.

The immigration laws were not written reasonably. The “why not” is a complicated economic issue (assuming that one does not simply dislike Mexicans on principle and prefer that they not come here at all. I don’t believe that this is where you are coming from, though.) The bottom line is that the law as written did not allow enough foreign workers into the county.

But. . .then the laws were enforced sloppily, if at all. So it was fairly easy for a Mexican to get into this country illegally, and find work.

But. . .now that they are here illegally, they are vulnerable to exposure. Many employers took advantage of this. They paid lower than minimum wage. They forced them to work long hours with no overtime pay. They forced them to work in unsafe conditions. And the workers could not do anything about it, because they could be turned in and deported at any time, and replaced with new workers.

So. . .the system of laws that were too strict combined with enforcement that was too lax created a whole system that was almost custom-designed to oppress these workers. It was (and still is) a system very similar to what James condemns in the first part of chapter 5. What the rich were doing then was perfectly legal. But James said it was morally wrong. What our rich employers are doing isn’t even technically legal, let alone moral, but they’ve been getting away with it more often than not.

So, yeah, our treatment of immigrants actually is, as I see it, an example of not loving one’s neighbor. Not the worst example, but it’s on the list.

Evan
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Oh, I did cut that off. Sorry.

Would you say that I'm approaching that wrong?

Well I certainly do not approve of abortion in any instance, but I would be for measures that would cut down on abortion if abolishing it is out of the question. (Which it seems to be)
 
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Eryk

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If people want to end abortions, those programs need to be championed
This is why I vote Democratic with a clear conscience. Republican policies result in more abortions.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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No, I am not talking primarily about immigration. But it is, in fact, a case in point. And here is why I am sympathetic to the Mexicans.

First off, I believe that laws should be written fairly and reasonably. Then, once written, they should be strictly enforced.

The immigration laws were not written reasonably. The “why not” is a complicated economic issue (assuming that one does not simply dislike Mexicans on principle and prefer that they not come here at all. I don’t believe that this is where you are coming from, though.) The bottom line is that the law as written did not allow enough foreign workers into the county.

But. . .then the laws were enforced sloppily, if at all. So it was fairly easy for a Mexican to get into this country illegally, and find work.

But. . .now that they are here illegally, they are vulnerable to exposure. Many employers took advantage of this. They paid lower than minimum wage. They forced them to work long hours with no overtime pay. They forced them to work in unsafe conditions. And the workers could not do anything about it, because they could be turned in and deported at any time, and replaced with new workers.

So. . .the system of laws that were too strict combined with enforcement that was too lax created a whole system that was almost custom-designed to oppress these workers. It was (and still is) a system very similar to what James condemns in the first part of chapter 5. What the rich were doing then was perfectly legal. But James said it was morally wrong. What our rich employers are doing isn’t even technically legal, let alone moral, but they’ve been getting away with it more often than not.

So, yeah, our treatment of immigrants actually is, as I see it, an example of not loving one’s neighbor. Not the worst example, but it’s on the list.

Evan

I do not disagree that immigration laws need MASSIVE reform, but let me ask you this. Does having a bad code of law or even an outdated one give license to break the laws that are currently in force? (Hint: the answer is no)

What other examples do you have?

Something else I see from Democrats is this misguided notion that because Jesus said "Give to the poor" we should give the poorer segments of society free things, stipends, and such. I am not opposed to helping the less fortunate. I am in fact part of that group of society, but to equate govt spending/giving to a command of Jesus is a bit outlandish I think.

It is one thing to give your $$$ to a poor person, it is an entirely other thing to have your money taken from you (i.e. Taxes) and then the govt spends it as they see fit. The two are not the same
 
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LoAmmi

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I do not disagree that immigration laws need MASSIVE reform, but let me ask you this. Does having a bad code of law or even an outdated one give license to break the laws that are currently in force? (Hint: the answer is no)

How bad of a law are you talking about? The answer is not always no.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I stand with the Christian Left and tend to vote Democrat more often than Republican. I'm for universal, single-payer healthcare for all, I abhor GOP efforts to cut so-called "entitlement" programs that aid children, the poor, the disabled, and the elderly. I oppose economic policy that gives benefits to the rich while disadvantaging the poor. I detest treating other people inhospitably because of religion, nation of origin, or sexual orientation. I won't fall victim to supporting a person whose lifestyle and words I detest just because he wraps himself in a Christian flag to get votes. (By their fruits you shall know them.) Sure the abortion issue gives me some pause, but I'm not a single-issue voter, and these other things matter to me a lot.
 
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