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Who does Comforter/Counselor refer to?

Discussion in 'Bibliology & Hermeneutics' started by Mike Etemadi, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. Mike Etemadi

    Mike Etemadi New Member

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    In John 16:7 ( as in several other places in John) we read (NIV):

    But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

    Also John 14:26,

    But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    John 15:26

    "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

    KJV uses Comforter instead of Counselor.

    Questions:

    1. If these verses prophecy the Holy Spirit being made available on the day of Pentecost, are we to believe that the Holy Spirit was not in the world before the day of Pentecost?

    2. What does the phrase "all things" encompass?

    3. Why are the pronouns (He, Him) used in refering to the Counselor?

    4. I believe a crude definition of "the Holy Spirit" would help out here. Is there any reference in the Bible as to what the Holy Spirit means?
     
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  2. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    according to the trinity, God=Jesus=Holy Spirit, therefore HS must be there, before the the day of Pentecost.

    "All thing" basically just means everything that the Father has to teach, including His characteristics, His commands, His love... conclusion: as the HS is a counselor, meaning, the helper, He's there to guide us according to the will of the Father. He'll remind us of His commands, and help us to discern what's right and wrong. A Christian walk cannot be without the help of the Holy Spirit.

    John 16:8-10 talks about the Holy Spirit coming to convict the world, "in regard to sin and righteous and judgement".
    John 16:13-14 the Holy Spirit "will guide you into all truth" and "bring glory to me (Jesus)".

    refer to the Holy Spirit as "He" because He is God.

    um, definition of Holy Spirit? better understand HS in light of the work of HS and the fruits of HS.
    Galatians 5:22-26
    love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
     
  3. Mike Etemadi

    Mike Etemadi New Member

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    THank you for your insight. In light of what you said regarding the existence of the HS before the day of Pentecost and that we understand HS in light of the work of HS and the fruits of HS.
    Galatians 5:22-26
    love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

     

    We have concluded that HS was there when Christ was there. We have also concluded that the fruits of HS were there before the day of Pentecost. Therefore,Then how are we to understand this verse?:

    In John 16:7 (NIV):

    But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

    Here the Lord says that unless He goes away, the Counselor/Comforter will not come. But if this does not refer to HS who does it refer to?


    Is it possible that the Light of our Lord Jesus might shine in another person? That another prophet/messenger will come with this Light in him? That this prophecy does not refer to the day of Pentecost?

    Let me know your thoughts please.
     
  4. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    definitely is the Holy Spirit.

    John 14:16-17 If you love me you will obey what i command. And i will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.

    The OT has also mentioned the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of God. Except when it comes to the NT, His Spirit is to be:
    Joel 2:28 And afterward, i will pour out my Spirit on all people.

    Whereas access to God was only restricted to priests and prophets, now in the NT and in this age, the Spirit of God is granted to anyone who believes in Jesus.
     
  5. Mike Etemadi

    Mike Etemadi New Member

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    Thank you again for your further input.

    I am hoping that I would be able to receive some insight on the specifics:

    1. Why the pronoun He?

    2. If Christ did not go away, the Comforter would not come? But if the Comforter was the HS, why was its coming conditional on Christ's departing? HS was always here!

    3. In your earlier response you had said that, "He'll remind us of His commands, and help us to discern what's right and wrong". I have studied the Word of God with many different fellow believers from different denominations and I have come across a wide variety of beliefs regarding such important topics as baptism, Sabath, Trinity, etc. If the Comforter is the HS and it is supposed to teach us everything about the Word, then how is it that there are so many differing and at times contradictory opinions. The more I think about this, the more I think that the Comforter does not refer to the HS but rather to the Second Coming of our Lord, when the seals on the books will be broken....

     

     
     
  6. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    if so, what's in your opinion the Holy Spirit for? or is there a Holy Spirit at all?

    um, i don't get your point, where does it say in the scripture that makes u think it's the second coming of the Lord? the scriptures are quite clear regarding the role and coming of the Holy Spirit..

    Let's look at something we all know: It was planned (by God) that Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. Then he was raised from death after 3 days, but if Jesus stayed in his physical form in the world, it's going to have different effects comparing to the granting of the Holy Spirit. What Jesus said were words, but what the Holy Spirit "says" are constantly in our hearts. The Holy Spirit helps to impress Jesus's words in us.

    As to your question regarding different interpretations of the scriptures, it's dangerous to say that (as it crosses my mind) that a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit, maybe it's satan who's controlling the situation. well, we all know that it is possible for people to twist the word of God, and we get a lot of false teachers even in the era of Jesus's time. We can only trust in the Lord that He will help us to discern what's right and wrong (coming back to HS), anyway, false doctrines somehow just can't stand the test of time and questions.
     
  7. Mike Etemadi

    Mike Etemadi New Member

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    I am an engineer and as such try to go about resolving issues point by point.

    1. The HS does exist an I concur with you that we know it by its gifts.

    2. If the Comforter does not refer to HS of the day of Pentecost, therefore it must refer to another Holy Being. Would you please explain why it was necessary for Christ to go away in order for the HS to be made available? It was already available at the time of our Lord, wasn't it?

    3. Is HS masculine?
     
  8. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    Protestant
    Single
    read my previous post.

    i don't think gender can be applied to God, afterall, He made us, right?

    Matthew 22:27-30 Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?
    Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like angels in heaven."
     
  9. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    The Bible says our Comforter is Jesus Christ, who is able to comfort us in all our temptations because He was tempted just like us. “For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour [or help] them that are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:18) It is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” (Colossians 1:27) “Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” (1 John 4:4) Because Jesus has suffered being tempted, and comes to us in a different way than He ever did before, He can truly be called, “another Comforter.” Jesus said, “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.”

    The Holy Spirit was to come and convict the world of sin. “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” (John 16:8) “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” (Acts 3:26) It is Jesus, after His resurrection, who comes to us to turn us from sin. Would you rather have a Comforter who knows what you are going through because He has been there Himself, or one who cannot empathize with you?

    Some may immediately say, “Jesus called the Comforter ‘he,’ therefore he must be someone else.” It was not uncommon in Christ’s day to speak of yourself in the third person. You find this style of writing throughout the New Testament. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” (John 5:19-22) Jesus spoke of Himself in the third person.

    Also see: Jesus - Another Comforter
    http://smyrna.org/Books/ff/ff_html/FF17.htm
     
  10. Divinus

    Divinus Member

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    The Comforter is a "he" because the word used - parakletos - is a masculine word. Also because the HS is a form of Jesus, an advocate, and that is one of the only other times the word is used in the NT, if I am not mistaken.

    Some have suggested that there were originally two spirits conceived by John - the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth, and the Advocate. But John 14 shows that when John was writing, the two spirits had been connected and were identified as one spirit.

    John does not say that there was no spirit before Jesus was crucified, because Jesus himself was filled with the pneuma-spirit in John 3, but I think his use of another word for spirit in the upper room discourses shows another role for the spirit, that of advocate, comforter, counselor, rather than just the prophetic ministry which it had had previously.

    -Divinus
     
  11. Jamie

    Jamie Ezekiel!! Ezekiel!!

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    Is it true that the Holy Spirit was only in the Prophets, or chosen people by God, before Jesus came? after his death, he promised to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who believed in him?

    Just a thought that came to my head... note: I may not know what I'm talking about LOL
     
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