Who do you admire

ThievingMagpie

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I think I naturally find "activist" leaders more inspiring than political ones. To echo Quid est, I also suspect people whose goal is power. In the UK I've found Aneurin Bevan's political career to be interesting and think the establishment of the NHS is a wonderful political legacy to leave. I dont agree with all Green party policies but I respect Caroline Lucas (green UK MP) for her beliefs and tenacity - she's been arrested a few times for protesting environmentally harmful activity and I think there are few other MPs around right now willing to see their beliefs through.

For context I'm currently a civil servant in UK central government- I dont find any of the current lot particularly inspiring :)
 
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Zoii

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The NZ PM is a worldly choice. The woman is an atheist who has used the gifts she acquired in a Christian context to articulate the feelings of her people in tragedies such as Christchurch. She is not leading NZ in a godly direction.

Yes the choice of Jacinda Ardern is a worldly one and extremely popular.

She is not elected to lead people in a Christian direction. NZ is a secular country and therefore its administration is independent of religion. That said she is leading the country that is highly ethical and acts as a beacon in terms of being a responsible country in this earth. That's more than most countries can say and is why it is in the top 15 for just about every index of nation performance - not the least of which is safety and prosperity.
 
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Zoii

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I can admire his political skills and freedom agenda while rejecting his religion as false and oppressive to millions of people in India.

yes well - History frequent argues that it was English imperialism that brought the oppression.

Hinduism pre-dates Christianity and is one of the worlds largest and resilient religions.
 
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mindlight

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Yes the choice of Jacinda Ardern is a worldly one and extremely popular.

She is not elected to lead people in a Christian direction. NZ is a secular country and therefore its administration is independent of religion. That said she is leading the country that is highly ethical and acts as a beacon in terms of being a responsible country in this earth. That's more than most countries can say and is why it is in the top 15 for just about every index of nation performance - not the least of which is safety and prosperity.

The pastor of my church brought her up as an example of a good leader in bible group. I pointed out that she was the first NZ PM not to swear on the bible when commissioned. He likes her socialism while I think her approach will probably reduce NZ competitive ability in the world and ultimately harm its poorest citizens. In practice her policies are naive in my view and ethical in his.

Just saying this to indicate there are Christians who would agree with your choice.
 
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mindlight

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yes well - History frequent argues that it was English imperialism that brought the oppression.

Hinduism pre-dates Christianity and is one of the worlds largest and resilient religions.

The British were a definite upgrade on the previous regimes e.g. the Mughals. Also we built India it did not exist as a country until us and nor did many of its cities. My family came as conquering soldiers but stayed as engineers and teachers. The railways were a lasting and positive legacy as was cricket!!!

Whether or not Christians and Muslims would prefer living under Modis Hindu nationalism ( BJP/ Hinduvata) or the Raj might also be an interesting discussion in the current context.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The British were a definite upgrade on the previous regimes e.g. the Mughals. Also we built India it did not exist as a country until us and nor did many of its cities. My family came as conquering soldiers but stayed as engineers and teachers. The railways were a lasting and positive legacy as was cricket!!!

Whether or not Christians and Muslims would prefer living under Modis Hindu nationalism ( BJP/ Hinduvata) or the Raj might also be an interesting discussion in the current context.
The Raj is often treated a tad unfairly. Though a colonial regime with all its potential for abuse, it did good things as well. I would add the suppression of the murderous Thuggee and of wife-burning Sati. Many Indian cities were founded by the British, too. One of the final viceroys told Independance leaders that "We were your Romans, we could have been your Normans" and the lasting British educational, parliamentary and other influences are certainly to India's advantage.

Not to whitewash history, the British were in India for their own profit, and certainly acted horrendously on occasion. The modern BJP is creating their own narrative and they are destroying as much Hindu history in the process - case in point, their reverence for the Mahayana is leading to suppression of versions of the epic that doesn't toe the line as to Ram. It is not Hinduism as the broad umbrella of Indian traditions, as their narrow brand of what it means to be Hindu. It is a form of seeking power and conformism, especially on things like punishing beef eating and the like. The clearest indication is the petty renaming, trying to wipe out the history of others - like with Mughalsarai, Niallabad or changing spelling of major cities. This was the very reason the Raj was partitioned, as the minority Muslim population feared a revisionist and vindictive Hindu nationalism - a real shame that those fears were justified, especially as Pakistan didn't end up in the best of sorts.
 
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mindlight

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The Raj is often treated a tad unfairly. Though a colonial regime with all its potential for abuse, it did good things as well. I would add the suppression of the murderous Thuggee and of wife-burning Sati. Many Indian cities were founded by the British, too. One of the final viceroys told Independance leaders that "We were your Romans, we could have been your Normans" and the lasting British educational, parliamentary and other influences are certainly to India's advantage.

:oldthumbsup:

Not to whitewash history, the British were in India for their own profit, and certainly acted horrendously on occasion. The modern BJP is creating their own narrative and they are destroying as much Hindu history in the process - case in point, their reverence for the Mahayana is leading to suppression of versions of the epic that doesn't toe the line as to Ram. It is not Hinduism as the broad umbrella of Indian traditions, as their narrow brand of what it means to be Hindu. It is a form of seeking power and conformism, especially on things like punishing beef eating and the like. The clearest indication is the petty renaming, trying to wipe out the history of others - like with Mughalsarai, Niallabad or changing spelling of major cities. This was the very reason the Raj was partitioned, as the minority Muslim population feared a revisionist and vindictive Hindu nationalism - a real shame that those fears were justified, especially as Pakistan didn't end up in the best of sorts.

Yes Modi is shattering the image of tolerant pluralism that has characterised Hinduism for most of it history. But to be honest that style of doing Hinduism was very ineffective and usually led to Indians being conquered by other nations. He is making reforms to modernise India building toilets in rural areas for instance and supporting a growing economy. But much of the benefits of the growth is concentrated in the hands of a few rich people. He has cut welfare spending also.

As I have said before on these forums "I wonder if Hinduism can be regarded as a thing at all. Maybe it is just a loose affiliation of an immense diversity of irreconcilable ceremonies, gods and theologies. Some Hindus quote the Vedic scriptures others do not. Some believe all paths lead to the same God others are happy with multiple gods. What has Shiva to do with Vishnu or with Shakti? Maybe they are just different ideologies altogether? Thus attempts by some Hindus to suggest that all paths lead to the same supreme being Brahman may in fact be misleading. But the Hindutva style Hindu nationalism that is a growing force in India (and so influential on Modis BJP) is something different, now certain groups like Muslims and Christians are targeted and excluded. The diversity that is so obvious within Hinduism itself is tolerated but not the differences with other religions also. But the fact is some Hindus have more in common with Christians than they do with other Hindus." The basic problem with Hinduism is that it does not really work on any level and is a very poor foundation for building a new superpower. So Modi is picking out the bits he likes and which he thinks will strengthen India but it is India he really seeks to serve rather than any god.

But the basic problem with Modi is that he is a threat to the church. If I was a Christian investor thinking about putting money into his country that is what should make me think twice. Persecution of Christians is increasing on his watch
 
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Bob Crowley

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I can't think of too many statesmen into today's world. I didn't get on with my father, but he did have some intelligent things to say. At one point we were talking about politics and he defined a statesman as "someone who can inspire a nation or people to do something they don't want to do, and to keep them at it till they succeed.". He quoted Winston Churchill as a statesman, saying "We'd have lost the war without him. We didn't want to fight but he kept us going."

Having said that, Churchill was an imperial dinosaur in some ways, but he was destined to serve a particular role and he did it well.

In US history, I suppose there's Abraham Lincoln and FDR in particular; in Australian history I'd say John Curtin, an ordinary working class man who led the nation through most of World War II. The politicians of that era were a different class to our modern crew - as my old pastor once said to me, "When those old time boys said something, they meant it."

One thing they all had in common though - they got thrust into difficult circumstances, almost against their will - Abe would not have wished the civil war on his own worst enemies; FDR had the misfortune to have the war on his doorstep when he was in power; Churchill only came to power as there was a power vacuum following the resignation of Chamberlain; and John Curtin would most certainly not have been the US's best friend in normal circumstances as he was a socialist at heart, but recognised the absolute necessity of American power in Australia's interests at a time when the nation was threatened with destruction.

He was pragmatic to the core when it came to the Australian national interest.

The following extract was taken from "The Task Ahead " published in The Herald (Melbourne), 27 December 1941.

'The task ahead' by John Curtin, 27 December 1941

The Australian Government, therefore, regards the Pacific struggle as primarily
one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the
direction of the democracies' fighting plan.

Without any inhibitions of any kind, I make it quite clear that Australia looks
to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the
United Kingdom.


We know the problems that the United Kingdom faces. We know the constant threat
of invasion. We know the dangers of dispersal of strength, but we know too,
that Australia can go and Britain can still hold on. ...

Summed up, Australian external policy will be shaped toward obtaining Russian
aid, and working out, with the United States, as the major factor, a plan of
Pacific strategy, along with British, Chinese and Dutch forces.

There's not many politicians around now whom I would call statesmen, although I think we underestimate some of them. I think of Vladimir Putin for example in Russia, balancing a resurgent Russia against considerable opposition from the West, and even Kim Jong-Un in North Korea.

I'm not an admirer of North Korea, far from it. But I sometimes wonder if Kim Jong-Un's ultimate goal is to establish full relations with the West (after all it seems he spent some time in Switzerland during his early years, so he would not be as naive as most of his own countrymen about the West). But he wants to do it from a position of strength, and not weakness, hence the nuclear weaponry charade.

If so, he'd have a difficult time of it, having to play off the hardliners in his country against his own aspirations. Perhaps that's why he's gotten rid of a few of them.

If that's the case, I could think of nothing worse than an assassination attempt mounted against him by his own hard men while he was on Western or South Korean soil. They'd then try to blame the West. But that's only my own imaginative fancy.
 
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Newtheran

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Viktor Orban, prime minister of Hungary. As good as President Trump has been since his election, Orban has an existential understanding of today's issues that he lacks.

Vladimir Putin, president of Russia. He's been doing everything he can to encourage revival in that country and has exhibited a friendliness to our faith rare among world leaders.
 
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DanishLutheran

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In no particular order:
Nigel Farage, Viktor Orbán, Matteo Salvini, Poland's leadership (can't remember names atm).....

And, what might surprise someone, in a way David Cameron too, if for nothing else than the fact that he faced the consequences of his Brexit-loss and stood down as PM.
 
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Ophiolite

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And, what might surprise someone, in a way David Cameron too, if for nothing else than the fact that he faced the consequences of his Brexit-loss and stood down as PM.
Or, more accurately, ran away as fast as he could in an unprincipled act of cowardice because he realised what a monumentally asinine decision he had made in permitting the referendum.
 
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Newtheran

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Or, more accurately, ran away as fast as he could in an unprincipled act of cowardice because he realised what a monumentally asinine decision he had made in permitting the referendum.

It's always refreshing to see the contempt those on the political left have for the democratic process when the results don't go their way.
 
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Ophiolite

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It's always refreshing to see the contempt those on the political left have for the democratic process when the results don't go their way.
Cameron was solidly pro-European, solidly Remain. He would never have entertained holding the referendum had he expected a Leave vote. His decision to hold it was wholly motivated by an attempt to deal with ongoing dissensions, lasting decades, within the Tory party. None of that is related to the left. None of that is related to the democratic process. Perhaps you should acquire a better understanding of UK politics* before letting your agenda drive your typing.

*To help you out, keep your eye on Rory Stewart. Unsuccessful in the leadership bid, but remarkable for his honesty, his oratory and his incisive observation. The most promising Conservative politician I have seen since the grossly underestimated and unappreciated John Major.
 
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DanishLutheran

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Or, more accurately, ran away as fast as he could in an unprincipled act of cowardice because he realised what a monumentally asinine decision he had made in permitting the referendum.

Cry harder ^_^
No. My original statement stands.
 
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Newtheran

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Hinduism pre-dates Christianity and is one of the worlds largest and resilient religions.

While it predates "christianity" in a technical sense, whether or not it is one of the oldest religions depends on which version of history you subscribe to...a creationist model in which polytheism represents the devolution of the original monotheistic faith of man or an evolutionary model in which monotheism is the evolutionary product of various strains of polytheism.

As far its resilience, it's easy to be when your only two heresies are omnivorism and spiritual exclusivity.
 
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Ophiolite

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Cry harder ^_^
No. My original statement stands.
The debating technique of failing to address the points raised by your opponent has a long and deserved history of being treated with contempt. The arguments against your original statement remain . . . . unanswered by you.
 
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DanishLutheran

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The debating technique of failing to address the points raised by your opponent has a long and deserved history of being treated with contempt. The arguments against your original statement remain . . . . unanswered by you.

If you'd brought anything of substance to the table, that would have been a legitimate point.
Since you didn't, it isn't. All you did was provide an alternate view, unsubstantiated by anything other than your dislike of the guy.
And hey, that's fair. Your opinion and all (though I do wonder if you have a license for that opinion, or have cleared it with the police before expressing it?).

But it was utterly devoid of any actual argument.
 
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Ophiolite

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If you'd brought anything of substance to the table, that would have been a legitimate point.
Since you didn't, it isn't. All you did was provide an alternate view, unsubstantiated by anything other than your dislike of the guy.
And hey, that's fair. Your opinion and all (though I do wonder if you have a license for that opinion, or have cleared it with the police before expressing it?).

But it was utterly devoid of any actual argument.
That's amusing. Since I was responding to your unsubstantiated opinion, no argument was required.

Please note, I have no "dislike of the guy", I dislike his actions. There is an important difference. I don't know you, so I neither like, nor dislike you. The same cannot be said of your posts.

I'll leave with you the last word. (Keep it polysyllabic please.)
 
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DanishLutheran

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That's amusing. Since I was responding to your unsubstantiated opinion, no argument was required.

Aaand yet you said that you made arguments which I didn't reply to. Which is it? Do you even know your way around your own "reasoning"?
 
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Zoii

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While it predates "christianity" in a technical sense, whether or not it is one of the oldest religions depends on which version of history you subscribe to...a creationist model in which polytheism represents the devolution of the original monotheistic faith of man or an evolutionary model in which monotheism is the evolutionary product of various strains of polytheism.

As far its resilience, it's easy to be when your only two heresies are omnivorism and spiritual exclusivity.
Why did you do that - why did you feel so necessary to look at the post and criticise the religion. I know your a christian so its almost a compulsion to somehow dump on another religion. But in a thread like this - why not just acknowledge and move on
 
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