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Who did Jesus die for?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Mountainmanbob, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    It should be said that I am as much, or more so, dismayed by the non-Calvinist's rejection of certain doctrines of grace (which are usually thought of as "Calvinist") as I am of the Calvinist's rejection of the doctrine which says that Christ died for the entire world.

    Why people feel that they have to fit exactly into one group or the other rather than simply say what the scriptures say on the matter is a bit beyond me.

    I suppose that, in the case of Calvinists, it is because they feel that somehow the Arminian position makes salvation seem to be by works rather than by grace.

    I suppose that, in the case of Arminians, it is because they feel somehow that election make God seem unfair.

    Both positions are ridiculous of course. God doesn't have need of anyone defending Him when it comes to how He dispenses His grace.

    It is, after all, grace and as such it is undeserved no matter how it is dispensed or withheld and to whom it is dispensed or withheld.
     
  2. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    A side question comes to mind ...

    Putting aside predestination for a moment (if that's possible - perhaps it's not within the framework) ...

    If you believe that Christ died only for a select few (or many), does that mean that those others would have no chance of salvation offered to them at all, if they wished to be saved?

    (I can actually guess the answer, but what if they did?)
     
  3. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seems those will be the ones that have no desire for the gospel. The Bible states that it is foolishness to them. Some places in the Bible it says that God hardens their hearts and yet in other places it says that they hardened their own hearts.

    Seems neither side of the aisle has the perfect answer here.

    M-Bob
     
  4. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    The Calvinist position is that those Jesus didn't die for would not want to be saved.
    That is not my position at all, I believe Jesus died for sinners, all of the sinners.
     
  5. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So it's just up to those sinners to decide on Jesus? You think that salvation depends on man's choice? Is it truly up to me totally if I go to heaven or not?

    M-Bob
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Jesus opened the door, you make the choice if you want to walk through it or not.
    Jesus paid the price.
    Jesus did everything He had to do so we could go to be with Him.
    Yes, it is up to you.
     
  7. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So I guess you might be all in for deathbed conversions and altar calls?
    M-Bob
     
  8. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    That's kind of what I expected to be told - that they wouldn't want to.

    I suppose within a Calvinistic framework the question makes no sense. But basically you would say that if they did desire to be saved, Christ made no atonement for them?

    But within certain theologies, certain questions can't be answered, or get cut off before that point (they wouldn't desire salvation).

    Thanks though.

    (And to be clear, this isn't my belief either, just trying to understand. Thank you!)
     
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Not necessarily. I don't mean that I'm speaking for anyone else, but Orthodoxy acknowledges man's free will and necessary cooperation with God. But we never had altar calls (though there are conversions - believe/repent/be baptized). A deathbed conversion might be no sure thing if it is only a safety tactic. If the person is not changed, perhaps they are not saved/healed of the effects of sin. In any case, Christ judges.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well, regardless if someone is one of the mentioned groups, or not ( if they are in any other group ),
    when I am able to question them in person (not permitted on any forum that I know of, so no, we cannot do this here),
    almost everyone admits as we look at Jesus' Own Words, that they don't want to be saved, nor to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    This is likely one of the strangest things for anyone to expect (it totally surprised me also) , and since it is not permitted to actually do this on any forum that I know of, there is no way to prove it.
    Just something for whoever wants to to consider and think about. Perhaps to go read the words of Jesus personally, to see if they really want to follow Jesus who is the only One with the Words of Eternal Life (there is no other way, no, no other way at all).
     
  11. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    The way altar calls are done I don't believe are right.
    But, if someone hears the Word of God and wants to know more they should be given the oppurtunity to do so.
    It looks like you don't believe in death-bed conversions.
    I think Jesus and the thief on the cross would disagree with you.
    You don't think God can call somebody to get saved while they are on there deathbed?

    Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
    That looks like a death-bed conversion to me.
     
  12. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    It even looks to me like Jesus died for people who will deny Him. 2 Peter 2:1
    2:1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
     
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    John in the video makes some huge assumptions without any support for making those assumptions:

    1. To say: “Christ died for every sinner” is not the same thing as saying: “Every sinner had his sins atoned for”. The Bible does not say: “Christ performed and completed the atonement process for man”, but talks about Christ’s crucifixion being the ransom payment and atonement sacrifice and He is the High Priest doing the offering. By saying Christ the entire atonement process leaves out the sinner’s part in the process.

    2. John emphasizes the fact: “sinners (nonbelievers) are dead and cannot do anything, but they do stuff all the time. The nonbeliever rebellious disobedient person cannot do anything righteous, worthy, honorable or glorious, but the nonbeliever can do stuff for purely selfish reasons so he is doing stuff. This is like the stuff the prodigal son did in the pigsty when he was dead (this dead is by Christ’s definition of dead).

    3. The first century male Jew would have had personal experience with the atonement process by bringing a sacrifice for unintentional (minor) sins to the temple, so what can we learn for that experience?
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    PHILLIPS
    But even in those days there were false prophets, just as there will be false teachers among you today. They will be men who will subtly introduce dangerous heresies. They will thereby deny the Lord who redeemed them, and it will not be long before they bring on themselves their own downfall. Many will follow their pernicious teaching and thereby bring discredit on the way of truth. In their lust to make converts these men will try to exploit you too with their bogus arguments. But judgment has been for some time hard on their heels and their downfall is inevitable. For if God did not spare angels who sinned against him, but banished them to the dark imprisonment of hell till judgment day: if he did not spare the ancient world but only saved Noah (the solitary voice that cried out for righteousness) and his seven companions when he brought the flood upon the world in its wickedness; and if God reduced the entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes (when he sentenced them to destruction as a fearful example to those who wanted to live in defiance of his laws), and yet saved Lot the righteous man, in acute mental distress at the filthy lives of the godless—Lot, remember, was a good man suffering spiritual agonies day after day at what he saw and heard of their lawlessness—then you may be absolutely certain that the Lord knows how to rescue a good man surrounded by temptation, and how to reserve his punishment for the wicked until his day comes.

     
  15. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, that may be but, the man has a very in-depth resume.

    Over 60 years of studying and preaching the Bible.

    Pastor of a very solid successful Church.

    Called on to be a Christian spokesman on shows such as Larry King Etc.

    President of his Christian Seminary College. The Master's College.

    Has written his own commentary Bible.

    Studied (each verse) of the Bible (in depth) in Greek, Hebrew and Latin.

    A world-famous Christian debater.

    M-Bob
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I didn't look to see who you're talking about,
    but it struck me that the same credentials were used by Saul when he persecuted the true believers and followers of Jesus,
    and it is written that the same kind of "impeccable" credentials will be used by the enemy to deceive the whole world ....
    so in all cases, in every case, something more/ different/ is always necessary to "test" (to prove) a message is of Yahweh , or of someone else.
     
  17. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe that to be a poor comparison since at that time Saul hated those of Christ and his followers. John MacArthur has always loved Christ and his followers.
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Ooops....
    let those who care to know, internet search before trusting any preacher - look for their own words, not others, by which they are judged (by their own words they are judged, according to Scripture) ).
    Most people never bother to compare what is preached with Scripture,
    nor to look for the truth if it is uncomfortable.
     
  19. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have watched hundreds of John MacArthur's videos on Utube. Go there and watch one or two (many, many interesting subjects.) As one will soon see he peaches straight from the Book. Very little of John and a whole lot of Scripture explained in full. Not a lot of fluff as with many preachers these days but, straight from the Bible.

    I have studied the Bible for a long time and can pick out pretty fast the false teachers. Whole, whole lot of them on TV -- John is not one.

    But, I'm not here to sell him. Just know solid teaching when I see it.

    Or John Piper might fit your bill even better. Maybe not so heavy. Start them on milk.

    M-Bob
     
  20. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That leaves it totally up to man and I find that no where in the Bible.

    When Nicodemus asked Jesus what must one do to be born again why did not Jesus tell him to make a decision?

    Even Nicodemus knew enough to know that it was not up to him.

    Jesus said it was like the wind it blows where it blows -- man has no control over the Holy Spirit or the wind.

    M-Bob
     
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