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Who did Jesus die for?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Mountainmanbob, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For comments regarding the "World" skip to minute 20.

    M-Bob
     
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  2. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    without watching the vid but knowing he's a Calvinist I suspect his answer would be "Christ died for the elect alone". Am I right? :wave:
    tulc(wonders if he wins something if he is?) :scratch:
     
  3. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Jesus died for sinners. All of them.
    Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    We see from these verses that many were made sinners. Not everybody was made a sinner.
    I always thought everybody was a sinner, but this verse says otherwise.
    And Jesus came for sinners, and He gave His life a ransom for many. He would not have needed to die for people who weren't affected by Adam's sin. So He died for the many who were affected by Adam's sin.
     
  4. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    I've listened to many of John's videos, he puts a lot of emphasis on things from two directions often. An often there is a fine line separating the difference. I've seen him stretch or shall we say emphasize it the scripture in his direction just a bit to make his message too.
     
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Jesus died for everyone. Perhaps some will reject. But Christ died to reconcile all men to God, and through reconciling men, to make the way for all of creation to be restored.
     
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  6. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I thought you might be one of the ones to actually watch the video.

    It's not good to jump to conclusions.

    M-Bob
     
  7. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But apparently not (all).
    M-Bob
     
  8. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Of course not all. Just for sinners.
     
  9. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Only for the Sinners who have Repented.

    With a Godly type of Repentance which I believe only the Holy Spirit can bring to light.

    The world has no desire to repent.
    As seen on TV.

    M-Bob
     
  10. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I watched the video.

    I agree with John's generally "Reformed" view point on salvation by grace through faith. I would call myself "Reformed" for want of a better term.

    That is to say that I believe in the inability of fallen men to respond without the work of the Holy Spirit to open their cursed and therefore blind eyes to the things of God.

    I also believe that God's opening the eyes of some and justly leaving the others in their blindness is not dependent on anything He finds commendable in the former person. That is not to say, however, that He does not also respond to any person who approaches Him in so far as that is possible for a fallen man to do - or respond to prayer concerning a particular unbeliever In that respect IMO election is not totally "unconditional" as often taught. God has reasons for everything He does including electing a particular person or not.

    I also believe that the work of the Holy Spirit done on behalf of some who have been chosen by the Father to be given to the Son will accomplish exactly what God intends it to accomplish.

    I also believe that those who are given, drawn to, and come to the Son of God in justifying belief will be sealed by the Spirit of God unto the day of their total glorification. I.e. - they will never again come into condemnation in the ultimate "Hell vs. Heaven" sense.

    But John (like most Calvinists) seems to be unable to think out of the party-line Calvinist box concerning the fact that they do not need to adopt the view of "limited atonement" which he is arguing for.

    Interestingly, Calvin himself seemed somewhat torn about limited atonement and rejected it in the end. That is he rejected it as taught by many 5-pointers today - and as presented in the video.

    The fact is that the truth concerning salvation by grace does lean toward so called Calvinism. But it lies somewhere between it and the so called Arminian viewpoint which teaches that Christ died for all men (elect or not).
    You are wrong about that.

    He died for sinners who have not only "not" repented but sinners who were not even born yet.
     
  11. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The message from John the Baptist repent.

    The message from Jesus repent.

    M-Bob
     
  12. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    No Scripture that I know of says that. Please provide one.
    Romans 5
    5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Thank you.
     
  13. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Peter said repent.
    Paul said repent.
    I have said unbelievers need to repent.
    My Pastor tells unbelievers to repent.
    I have heard many preachers say repent.
    So are you saying that Jesus died for whoever we tell to repent of there sins and believe the Gospel?
     
  14. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped ...
     
  15. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    ???????????????
     
  16. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Do you think people here don't believe that God calls people to repentance?

    I think what we are disagreeing with you about is the way you said the following, I.e. that He died, "only for the Sinners who have Repented".

    I suppose that you may have inadvertently misstated that. If that's the case - just say so. No harm no foul.

    But if you meant exactly what you said - it would be one of the silliest theological statements I ever heard.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Exactly. And He can everyone the freedom to reject the gift as well.
     
  18. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Yes. Strange as it may seem that some apparently will choose to reject, or else through sin make themselves unable/unwilling to repent, so they end up rejecting. But yes, we are all of us certainly fully free to do so.
     
  19. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    1 Thessalonians 5:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

    Christ died for His church, the 'we', believers, so that we would live together with Him.
    While the world obtains God's wrath and judgement for their sin.
    If you read this you will see the opposing elements of wrath versus mercy is fully understood by who Christ dies for to save, which is why he came, to save His people from their sins..AND to this we were appointed by God.

    Every good and perfect gift comes down from above from God the Father. Salvation is that free gift to which we who believe are appointed which cause of our belief is our appointment and so will believe in the Son. He is after all the beginning and the end, the author of our salvation and you are not your own, He purchased you at a great price..
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  20. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    While I certainly believe that Christ died for His church, i.e. the elect/you and me- I also affirm that we are not saved (justified) through His death alone, as important as that death was for our salvation.

    Instead, the scriptures teach that even the elect of God are enemies of God and are suffering His judgment even now and are due His eternal wrath - right up until the split second that they are justified by grace through saving faith.

    ".... we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Ephesians 2:3

    "...do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-12

    "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior." Colossians 1:21

    If you and I and the Apostle Paul were enemies of God and children of wrath for a great portion of our lives - even though Christ died for our sins some 2,000 years ago - there is no logical reason why Adolf Hitler (for instance) could not remain in that same condition for eternity.

    So called "limited atonement" (as usually taught by Calvinists) is based on the kind of poor logic outlined by John M. in the video - i.e. that if Christ died for all than all would be saved/therefore Christ died only for the elect.

    This doctrine is also supported by very flimsy scriptural interpretation and it is rightly rejected by the vast majority of evangelical Christians.

    John Calvin did not believe that Christ died only for the elect and neither should we.

    By the way - the doctrine of limited atonement is not related to the doctrine of election.

    Election has to do with God opening the eyes of certain blind men in order that they be justified by faith - while atonement has to do with Christ's death on behalf of the entire world - which will be efficacious only for the elect when all is said and done.

    Many so called Calvinists see my position on limited atonement as being "Arminian" But I disagree with that kind of classification.

    The Church is not "of Calvin" and the Church is not "of Arminius". The Church should consider herself "Calvinist" and consider herself "Arminian" only in so much as those groups are correct in their doctrines according to the scriptures.

    The true "doctrines of grace" include some from column A and some from column B - IMO.

    I'm quite sure I have the mind of Christ in this matter -- the mind of John MacArthur, not so much.:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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