Who could be the 8th king of Revelation

[TribulationSigns]

What you are saying about the beast being spirtually Satan's body is not in the bible, but a product of some rationale you have devised. The number of the beast is the number of a man.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You do not understand. The beast is a body of Satan making up of professed Christians. They are marked by Satan on their right hand (will of Satan) or on their forehead (same mind of Satan). Both symbolize his servitude and that his mind is sold out to Satan. A physical mark does not determine your soul. It is a spiritual mark which is much more dangerous than you think!

Read about the mark of the beast here.

 

[Douggg]

You do not understand. The beast is a body of Satan making up of professed Christians. They are marked by Satan on their right hand (will of Satan) or on their forehead (same mind of Satan). Both symbolize his servitude and that his mind is sold out to Satan. A physical mark does not determine your soul. It is a spiritual mark which is much more dangerous than you think!

That is irrational. The beast makes war on the saints and makes war on the two witnesses.

Whether a person receives or rejects Jesus is the only factor regarding the status of a person's soul. The mark and number of the beast will be a literal physical mark, taken by persons who are not Christians, but who reject Jesus.

A Christian is a person who has received Jesus.

John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[TribulationSigns]

That is irrational.

Hardly!

The beast makes war on the saints and makes war on the two witnesses.

Try to learn to quote Scripture.

Rev 11:7-8
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The two Witnesses are TRUE ELECT of God, not two individuals like Moses and Elijah as most believe! They are empowered by God to bring Gospel to the world until all Elect (eg. until the fulness of the Gentiles be coming in) has been sealed, then their testimony is finished. The beast is a body of Satan which are men with spirit of antichrist who will come into church and try to silence the truthful testimony of Elect in the Church. THIS is the war and rumors of war everywhere the church are. The war between God's Elect and professed christians for the control of the church.

But of course, you can not tell, because you are busy looking for someone out in Europe or an event in the middle east for the fulfillment of the prophecies.

Whether a person receives or rejects Jesus is the only factor regarding the status of a person's soul.

Your free will doctrine is false. According to Scripture:

Joh 15:16
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Php 2:13
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The mark and number of the beast will be a literal physical mark, taken by persons who are not Christians, who reject Jesus.

You are brainwashed by theologians. Of cousre, it is because you have carnal minds.

A Christian is a person who has received Jesus.

John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No one can make him to chose or receive him unless Christ draws him that he will receive Him! Christ is the AUTHOR and finisher of your faith. Not you.

Joh 6:44
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Douggg]

The two Witnesses are TRUE ELECT of God, not two individuals like Moses and Elijah as most believe! They are empowered by God to bring Gospel to the world until all Elect (eg. until the fulness of the Gentiles be coming in) has been sealed, then their testimony is finished. The beast is a body of Satan which are men with spirit of antichrist who will come into church and try to silence the truthful testimony of Elect in the Church. THIS is the war and rumors of war everywhere the church are. The war between God's Elect and professed christians for the control of the church.

The two witnesses are two individuals. When killed by the beast, their bodies lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

Your free will doctrine is false. According to Scripture:

Sounds like you have been listening to Jim Brown Grace and Truth ministries, his concept of predestination.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The two witnesses are two individuals. When killed by the beast, their bodies lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

You need to study Scripture and compare it with Scripture.

Act 1:8
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 11:3-4
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Both speak of same people who received power as Christians to bring Gospel to the world. Not two individuals. Moreover, the number 2 in Scripture signifies truth, therefore God is talking about His witnesses of Truth. It is us, Christians, who has the truthful testimony that the beast wants to silence (kill) us.

The 1,260 days are symbolically the whole church age as long as we bring Gospel to save people until all Elect has been sealed, then the beast will come out of the bottomless pit to silence them which will bring the great tribulation.

Sounds like you have been listening to Jim Brown Grace and Truth ministries, his concept of predestination.

Never heard of him. Please stick with the Bible who is our authority for Truth.

Good night!

 

[Douggg]

The 1,260 days are symbolically the whole church age as long as we bring Gospel to save people until all Elect has been sealed, then the beast will come out of the bottomless pit to silence them which will bring the great tribulation.

Why 1260 and not some other number ?

 

[Davy]

You are trying to apply a fleshy, carnal sense to a heavenly cherub that is able to manifest here on earth, just as angels have in several examples in God's Word.

Like I said, if one doesn't understand what Satan originally did against God in the time of old, then they won't understand our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about Satan coming as the antichrist false messiah at the end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming.

No flesh man claiming to be Christ has ever... fulfilled the following manifestations our Lord Jesus warned of...

In Matt.24:5, Jesus warned that 'many' would come in His name and claim to be Christ. But this one in the Matt.24:23-26 verses is different...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These particular verses here are about a singular false one coming to play Christ. The actual Greek for "false Christs" is pseudochristos from the Greek pseudo and Christos. In the Greek Christos is singular for Christ.

This point of that pseudo-Christ being able to work those "great signs and wonders" that if possible, would even deceive Christ's own elect, is a special distinction. It's shows the level of power he will be allowed to work on earth, like a god. NO flesh born man has ever... done that which claimed to be Christ. You could name flesh men that have claimed to be Christ all day long and it would be totally irrelevant to the meaning of this coming pseudo-Christ who will literally... work miracles on earth that will deceive the majority of the whole world.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Jesus even thought this specific warning of that coming false one so important, that He emphasized it again.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul is giving this same kind of warning about the coming antichrist.

There is that one singular individual who will become the Antichrist, but it will not be that he will a false christ, such as persons coming in Jesus's name, i.e. claiming that they are him (Jesus).

examples of "false christs" are Hosea Miranda (deceased), John Miller of Australia, Vissarion of Russia.

Instead, the Anti-(Jesus) Christ will be a person who the Jews will embrace as being their long awaited messiah. "the" messiah in Biblical terms is the promised great King of Israel, God would send to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety, among other things.

"Anti" means instead of and against. The person who becomes the Antichrist - by being anointed the King of Israel by the Jews will be instead of and against Jesus - the rightful King of Israel.

When the person, in the role of being the King of Israel, without warning, commits the act in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin - that will effectively end his time as the Antichrist, as the Jews mortified over his action will reject him from continuing as their King.

The person will be killed for his action (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and subsequently brought back to life in Isaiah 14:19-20, after a short time in hell. When the person is brought back to life by God who does so because of His disdain for the person, the person takes on the persona as the beast - which Revelation refers to him as.

So it is essentially wrong to call the person in Revelation 13, the "Antichrist" because he will no longer be in that role. Just as a reporter would not refer at a presidential news conference, to address the President of the United States as Senator. Different roles.

That person goes through different roles, is essential to understanding the end times.

The roles are.....

Fist as the little horn, leader of the end times Roman Kingdom - the EU, then as
The prince who shall come (to the middle east), then as
The Antichrist, illegitimate anointed King of Israel, then as
The revealed man of sin, then as
The beast of Revelation

Revealing himself as the man of sin - is the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13) - triggering the Day of the Lord.

Shorty thereafter (we are not given as timeframe), the person after being killed and brought back to life as the beast, and the image made of him in Revelation 13 -

The image of the beast - is the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) - triggering the Great Tribulation.

The image of the beast will be incarnated by Satan, making it appear to have life - which everyone will be required to worship. The beast on the other hand is some forth coming man, who goes through those roles. The last role being that of being the beast.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why 1260 and not some other number ?

I will explain later. I am going to bed.

1260, 1290, 1335, 3-1/2 days, 5 months, etc. All numbers in the book of Revelation are to be understood spiritual discerned (not literally) based on comparing Scripture with Scripture.

 

[Gottservant]

Without the Beast, the world would hate the faith even more.

If the Beast were one man, he would go madder still.

If the Beast were less than first, he would not take charge, rule and resign (a beastly hard saying).

(The salvation - that the Beast sees an end in his own rule -, is indeed the beginning of Christ's Rule).

 

[Douggg]

No flesh man claiming to be Christ has ever... fulfilled the following manifestations our Lord Jesus warned of...

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia

 

[Davy]

Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia

So Sathya Sai Baba deceived Christians using miracles?

No one since Jesus Christ has ever worked the level of great signs and wonders the coming pseudo-Christ is to work in Jerusalem for the end. The reason is simple, and Jesus explained it for those who actually listen to Him.

Matt 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ, or there'; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

The idea is not the level of power to deceive weak believers on Jesus, but the level of power to work great signs and wonders that, IF possible, would deceive Christ's "very elect".

Christ's very elect cannot... be deceived, for Jesus already owns them (John 17), and like the Apostles, can influence them directly (Paul being the greatest example of that influence by Christ Jesus).

So no boogie-man from the far east working like a stage show magician fits that working, sorry.

 

[seventysevens]

I will explain later. I am going to bed.

1260, 1290, 1335, 3-1/2 days, 5 months, etc. All numbers in the book of Revelation are to be understood spiritual discerned (not literally) based on comparing Scripture with Scripture.

In all of your views anything prophetic is spiritual , allegorical , symbolized and not literal -
excuse me while I put on symbolized shoes and get some allegorical lunch

 

[TribulationSigns]

In all of your views anything prophetic is spiritual , allegorical , symbolized and not literal

Why many theologians and Christians, like you, want to constantly attempt to make the book of Revelation speak of physical/literal events, things, happenings, or the papal system, nation Israel can only be because they have not the spiritual insight to allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves. God has always spoken this way, it is not some "NEW" type of symbolism, imagery, hermeneutic or interpretation, it is always been the way God and Christ have spoken and prophesied.

The truth is the entire book of Revelation is a collage of cryptic numbers, figures, imagery, enigmatic representations, symbolism, analogies and metaphors.

For me to agree with that would be like saying the one thousand year reign was just a normal one thousand years (as some Theologians did before 1000 years had passed). Or that the 7 churches simply spoke concerning those literal seven churches. I can't agree with that as the seven are a "representation" a symbol of some deeper spiritual truth. Seven is the number of completeness or the totality. There's not a single number in the book of Revelation that doesn't carry some symbolic spiritual significance. These numbers, like the imagery of the pit, dragon, smoke, locusts, stings, etc., aren't literal/physical, and so how can we think that we can take the 5 months out of this "symbolic context" and make it literally 5 months. No more than saying the 2 Witnesses are literally two witnesses. It's contrary to the whole of Scripture. Especially from a book where numbers are so obviously used symbolically. For example the 42 months, the 144,000 sealed of Israel, the 24 elders before the throne, the 1000 year reign, the 10 horns of the Dragon, the 7 Spirits of God, the 2 witnesses, the 4 horsemen, the 12 stars in heaven, and so on and so on. The 5 months "represents" the time period between when God gives authority to open the bottomless bit or abyss and loose the spirit of Antichrist against His rebellious house, and the time when the house is left in ruins or desolated. This as judgment for their rebellion in serving lawless man rather than God. As in Revelation 20 where Satan and his minions come against the camp of the saints, not against the world, which he already has enslaved. He gathers the nations against the camp of believers. He wants to extend his rule to the kingdom of God on earth. Revelation 9:1-2 correlates to Revelation chapter 20 when Satan is loosed from this same bottomless pit to assault the camp of the saints.

Revelation 9:1-2

• "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
• And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

The messenger (star) that John saw had fallen was given the key to the bottomless pit by the Lord in order to render judgment upon his unrepenting church. This is just as God promised the fallen star, the messenger of the church, what would happen if he didn't repent from his evil. God promised that his (the star's) church would be removed out of its place. The same rule always applies, that Scripture interprets Scripture, God's word explains God's word, not man. And God interprets both the star that had fallen and the result of it if he didn't repent.

Revelation 1:20

• "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

The Lord Himself decyphers the mystery of the symbol of the star and the Candlestick (lampstand) in His word so that there can be no misunderstanding in this uncovering. The stars He reveals are actually the messengers of the churches, and the candlesticks He assures us are actually the churches. This is according to God's revelation of the mystery of this symbolism. Now we read further and discern the warning that God Himself specifically gives to the star that had fallen.

Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

So then we have God's interpretation of the heaven from which the star fell, exactly what the star that had fallen represented, and that God would indeed bring judgment upon that stars church by removing it out of its place if the messenger didn't remember from where he had fallen and repent. Allowing the Revelator to reveal this truth we see that God illustrates that it is because of this fallen star that the church is judged, and God removes it out of its place.

 

[Douggg]

So Sathya Sai Baba deceived Christians using miracles?

No one since Jesus Christ has ever worked the level of great signs and wonders the coming pseudo-Christ is to work in Jerusalem for the end. The reason is simple, and Jesus explained it for those who actually listen to Him.

Matt 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ, or there'; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

The idea is not the level of power to deceive weak believers on Jesus, but the level of power to work great signs and wonders that, IF possible, would deceive Christ's "very elect".

Christ's very elect cannot... be deceived, for Jesus already owns them (John 17), and like the Apostles, can influence them directly (Paul being the greatest example of that influence by Christ Jesus).

So no boogie-man from the far east working like a stage show magician fits that working, sorry.

I don't know who specifically Sathya Sai Baba desceived, neither do you for that matter. I do know that there are persons who lieave Christianity for other religions from the numerous videos on You Tube they make.

The false prophet in Revelation 13 will make fire come down from heaven, in similitude to what Elijah did, which of course Elijah was not considered the Christ. The Jews are expecting Elijah to re-appear and precede the messiah; so early on, before Revelation 13, the false prophet is likely to claim to be Elijah. Of course, if so, a claim that will be exposed as a lie because the false prophet will be saying that the beast is God or more likely has achieved God-hood.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[Davy]

I don't know who specifically Sathya Sai Baba desceived, neither do you for that matter. I do know that there are persons who lieave Christianity for other religions from the numerous videos on You Tube they make.

The false prophet in Revelation 13 will make fire come down from heaven, in similitude to what Elijah did, which of course Elijah was not considered the Christ. The Jews are expecting Elijah to re-appear and precede the messiah; so early on, before Revelation 13, the false prophet is likely to claim to be Elijah. Of course, if so, a claim that will be exposed as a lie because the false prophet will be saying that the beast is God or more likely has achieved God-hood.

You really don't know, because you just contradicted yourself with saying the false prophet will be saying the beast could 'achieve' God-hood. That's more like eastern religious belief that teaches a flesh man can become a god.

No, the coming pseudo-Christ Jesus warned of won't need to develop in stages to be God-like. He will appear with powers on earth at full throttle. The orthodox Jews behind him well know what us Christians expect when our Lord Jesus returns, and they'll likely provide enough of that to deceive many Christian brethren.

The false one Apostle Paul said will exalt himself as God, and over all... that is worshiped, or that is 'called' God. That means he is going 'play' God (2 Thess.2). So what would it take to truly 'play'... God and make the whole world (except Christ's very elect) believe it? Paul wasn't joking about the "strong delusion". That's why Jesus showed that it would, IF possible, deceive even His very elect (Matt.24:24).

 

[Davy]

Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia

See this, which even this doesn't fool the believing Christian who does their homework in God's Word...

If things like that can go on in some so-called Churches today, then what the coming pseudo-Christ is going to do in Jerusalem will really deceive the majority of the world. And that's the idea that's actually written, the majority of the whole world will be deceived by the miracles he will be given the power to do.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The false prophet in Revelation 13 will make fire come down from heaven, in similitude to what Elijah did, which of course Elijah was not considered the Christ. The Jews are expecting Elijah to re-appear and precede the messiah; so early on, before Revelation 13, the false prophet is likely to claim to be Elijah. Of course, if so, a claim that will be exposed as a lie because the false prophet will be saying that the beast is God or more likely has achieved God-hood.

No. That is a private interpretation and reading into Scripture on your part. No where in Revelation 13 is talking anything about Elijah here. You made it up.

The Bible does not say the beast "called" down fire from heaven, it says he does great wonders so that he makes fire to come down from heaven. Read the verse carefully:

Rev 13:13-14
[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

That's not semantics, it's a very different idea from him calling down fire from heaven "as if" he were a prophet. The real question is, "how does he make fire come down from heaven?" Does he call or command it to come from heaven (as is the implication you are making), or in context does he cause it to come down "BY" the great wonders he does, which are clearly an abomination to God. Do you even know what abomination would that be? When you look at the passage carefully, that's exactly what he does. Now you go ahead and look at Revelation 20:9 makes it plain that it is correct that HE (false prophet) caused it to come down by his actions against God's church (camp of the saints), which is why God consequently sent it to destroy them. Again:

Revelation 20:9

• "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Fire came down from heaven to devour the beast because it compassed or encircled the camp of the saints. For example, it's judgment upon them, not something they themselves wanted and so-called it down upon themselves. They weren't seeking judgment upon themselves, they were seeking converts as they were under strong delusion in thinking they were doing God a service. In the Biblical context, we see that these are the "deceived." The beast or false prophets cannot call fire from heaven anymore than the false prophets in Elijah's day could call down fire from heaven. Selah! Get it? However, they DID make or cause fire to come down from heaven to devour them "because" of their abominations. That is how God will use it as a judgment upon them!

As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

By the way, the beast of Revelation 13 is NOT an individual (eg. antichrist and false prophet), rather it is a body of men with the spirit of antichrist (fale prophets and christs) selling the doctrines of Satan IN THE CONGREGATION of God. Likewise, in Ezekiel 38, God is bringing them together into His mountain (congregation) as a judgment upon them!

Whoever have ears, let him hear!

 

[Davy]

Yeah, assigning Elijah to what the "another beast" of Rev.13 does is truly a far... stretch of the imagination.

 

[Douggg]

No. That is a private interpretation and reading into Scripture on your part. No where in Revelation 13 is talking anything about Elijah here. You made it up.

There is nothing in error of what I wrote. I was making commentary, not a thus saith the Lord, as though I was delivering an interpretation speaking on behalf of the Lord.

And I wrote in "similitude". I did not write "exactly" like Elijah did.

Fire came down from heaven to devour the beast because it compassed or encircled the camp of the saints. For example, it's judgment upon them, not something they themselves wanted and so-called it down upon themselves. They weren't seeking judgment upon themselves, they were seeking converts as they were under strong delusion in thinking they were doing God a service. In the Biblical context, we see that these are the "deceived." The beast or false prophets cannot call fire from heaven anymore than the false prophets in Elijah's day could call down fire from heaven. Selah! Get it? However, they DID make or cause fire to come down from heaven to devour them "because" of their abominations. That is how God will use it as a judgment upon them!

That's not what the text indicates in Revelation 13. There's no connection between Revelation 13:13-14 and Revelation 20:9. The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, alive, at the end of the 42 months, when Jesus returns, not by fire from out of heaven by God to consume them.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
__________________________________________________________________________

The miracles, such as the fire coming down from heaven, deceives them that dwell upon the earth. That's what the text says.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[Douggg]

Yeah, assigning Elijah to what the "another beast" of Rev.13 does is truly a far... stretch of the imagination.

The another beast is the false prophet. Neither is Satan.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.