WHO CAUSED THE LORD'S DEATH?

RDKirk

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So did Jesus die for us or for God? (Romans 3;25-26).

Jesus is God.

Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."
 
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Si_monfaith

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Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him
.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief
;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Clearly it was God the Father who put this all into motion before creation.

Psalm 135:6 "The Lord does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths."

Is it because God does all that He pleases?
 
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RDKirk

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Acts 4:27-28 :
"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

Doesn't God tell us from His word that He had decided beforehand by His will for Herod, Pilate etc to crucify His Son?

In such a scenario, can we say that the idea to crucify the Lord was made originally by humans? Or are humans simply instruments in the hand of God to fulfill His purposes?

You can state your opinions in a Christ-like fashion with appropriate warrant from God's word.

What difference does it make?

What are you going to do with the answer?

Are you going to take out vengeance on whoever can be blamed?

Are you really trying to score a bank shot in the free will debate?

You started this discussion in the WoF area...what's the connection you're trying to make?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Proverbs 21:30, Psalms 94:20-21, Micah 7:18, Matthew 27:22-25.

Pretty clear through this that God is against the shedding of innocent blood, and that the Jews who forced Pilate's hand said they would bear the cost. Jesus did so in order to redeem us by right, in order that He may continue His work through us (Romans 7:14, 1 Corinthians 6:20, 1 Corinthians 7:23).
Who is the primary cause of Lord's death? God or humans?
 
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eleos1954

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Acts 4:27-28 :
"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

Doesn't God tell us from His word that He had decided beforehand by His will for Herod, Pilate etc to crucify His Son?

In such a scenario, can we say that the idea to crucify the Lord was made originally by humans? Or are humans simply instruments in the hand of God to fulfill His purposes?

You can state your opinions in a Christ-like fashion with appropriate warrant from God's word.

The plan of salvation, that included Jesus laying down His life for us was in place before creation of the earth. Nobody "killed" Him .... he willingly gave His life for us.

Ephesians 1:3–4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
 
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ewq1938

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Are you considering "ye" as the primary cause or secondary cause of crucifixion?


The only reason Jesus was crucified by the Romans is because they insisted Pilate do it despite Pilate finding Jesus innocent. The Jews threatened to tell Caesar that Pilate was not his friend so to keep the peace Pilate relented.

Joh 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
 
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Si_monfaith

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The only reason Jesus was crucified by the Romans is because they insisted Pilate do it despite Pilate finding Jesus innocent. The Jews threatened to tell Caesar that Pilate was not his friend so to keep the peace Pilate relented.

Joh 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

"Pilate sought to release Jesus". However wasn't he unsuccessful? Wasn't that because God had already predetermined his actions?
 
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Si_monfaith

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The plan of salvation, that included Jesus laying down His life for us was in place before creation of the earth. Nobody "killed" Him .... he willingly gave His life for us.

Ephesians 1:3–4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
Doesn't God use humans as instruments to fulfill His purposes?
 
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Si_monfaith

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The plan of salvation, that included Jesus laying down His life for us was in place before creation of the earth. Nobody "killed" Him .... he willingly gave His life for us.

Ephesians 1:3–4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
Doesn't God use humans as instruments to fulfill His purposes?
 
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Tolworth John

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So did Jesus die for us or for God? (Romans 3;25-26).

Why do you assume it has to be one or the other?

We deserve Gods Judgement, yet Jesus took what we deserve. In doing this he satisfied Gods justice.

In all this remember that it is the trinitarian God we are talking about.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit and not three gods.
God took upon himself our punishment etc.
 
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now faith

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Adam and Eve , new they had sinned and were ashamed.
God said ye will surely die.
They died not instantly but in time.
God tore the skins of animals and covered their shame.
This was the first death to enter the world, it took innocent Blood to cover their sin.
Life is in the Blood, as time moved on man had to sacarfice animals for sin.
They had to be perfect without blemish.
The blood of a lamb was posted on the door of the children of promise ,when God sent his Angel to kill the first born.
On the top or mantle and on the sides ,this was a sign of Christ.
The Old Testament is all about Jesus, not about who killed him.
It took God to bring sinless prefection to mankind.
Through Him those who believe are sinless in God's eyes forever.
Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
No man could kill him, no devil could kill him, Christ gave his life so we that believe could have life abundant, without death He'll and the grave.
I would never think any man could kill God, what He Gave He Gave of His own Free Will.
It dishonors the greatest gift to mankind, to y think msn had anything to do with the atonement.

John 1: 29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 10: 17. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

[Staff edit].
 
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Si_monfaith

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Adam and Eve , new they had sinned and were ashamed.
God said ye will surely die.
They died not instantly but in time.
God tore the skins of animals and covered their shame.
This was the first death to enter the world, it took innocent Blood to cover their sin.
Life is in the Blood, as time moved on man had to sacarfice animals for sin.
They had to be perfect without blemish.
The blood of a lamb was posted on the door of the children of promise ,when God sent his Angel to kill the first born.
On the top or mantle and on the sides ,this was a sign of Christ.
The Old Testament is all about Jesus, not about who killed him.
It took God to bring sinless prefection to mankind.
Through Him those who believe are sinless in God's eyes forever.
Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
No man could kill him, no devil could kill him, Christ gave his life so we that believe could have life abundant, without death He'll and the grave.
I would never think any man could kill God, what He Gave He Gave of His own Free Will.
It dishonors the greatest gift to mankind, to y think msn had anything to do with the atonement.

John 1: 29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 10: 17. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Is the question in the heading about who killed Jesus? You may read the questions raised, once again.

Do you mean to say Jesus died of His own, without God's predetermination and the instrument of human choice and action?
 
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now faith

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Yes ,because Christ is God, along with The Holy Spirit.
To presume anything else ,would be separating the one God.
If God had predetermined Him then He decided Himself not By order.
We are made in the image of God Spirit, Soul, and ,Body.
This is impossible for us until we die.
This is why Christ died as a man,yet was resurrected back to God.
He could not die as God, He gave up his mortal being for us.
He became a mortal being for us.
Only God could keep his word yet redeem mankind by his Death.
The penalty for Sin is Death.
Only God's sinless prefection could pay this price.

Hebrews 2: 6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes ,because Christ is God, along with The Holy Spirit.
To presume anything else ,would be separating the one God.
If God had predetermined Him then He decided Himself not By order.
We are made in the image of God Spirit, Soul, and ,Body.
This is impossible for us until we die.
This is why Christ died as a man,yet was resurrected back to God.
He could not die as God, He gave up his mortal being for us.
He became a mortal being for us.
Only God could keep his word yet redeem mankind by his Death.
The penalty for Sin is Death.
Only God's sinless prefection could pay this price.

Hebrews 2: 6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

So do you mean to say that simply because Jesus is God, He doesn't submit to the Father to do the Father's will & God's plan?

1 Corinthians 15:28:"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Are you denying the subjection of Jesus to the Father simply because Jesus is God? [Staff edit].
 
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hhodgson

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Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This is correct... even though God uses humans as instruments to fulfill His purposes.


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To seek the cause of Jesus' death would inadvertently lead to blame and we can't blame anyone for the greatest act of Love ever.
Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was "delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." God Himself had foreordained and predetermined when and how Jesus would die. Am certain the Jewish soldiers, leaders and Pilate felt guilt for His crucifixion but it was all a work of God. In John 19:11 Jesus said to Pilate, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above"-this implies that no one could do anything to Jesus against His will.

Excellent post and thank you for not omitting the.... "the foreknowledge of God" which some, but (not all) Reformed Calvinist tend to do.


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