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Featured Who believes we are in the latter days and that the Rapture will happen in our lifetime?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by TheSinningServant, May 9, 2019.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The majority of Jews did, and still do.
     
  2. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, and that was proclaimed in scriputure to be the case which would allow the fullness of the gentiles to be brought in. And as Paul clearly lays out, after that fulfillment has been reached, then all Israel will be saved. So, Israel is still in play. Yeshua is not returning to reign upon the earth until the corporate leadership of Israel turns to Him and petitions His return. Again, that is laid out very clearly by Yeshua Himself in both OT and NT. It is not conditional that every single Hebrew accept Yeshua.

    And those in the church, a lot of blame can be laid at their feet. After the first century, the corporate church started to disassociate itself from its Hebrew roots. It wanted to show no connection to the Hebrew people in any way. So by extension, the corporate church forced Hebrews away from the faith. So while one can argue that most Hebrews have rejected Yeshua, a big chunk of the blame for that rests solely at the feet of the church. It is hard to convince a people that have been brutalized, killed, had their property seized or ransacked for centuries with the approval of the corporate church that they should accept Yeshua. Yet given that, corporate national Israel will turn to Yeshua in the future. No thanks to the morons in the church over the centuries.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ will return when it's the right time. It has nothing at all to do with any supposed decision by the corporate leadership of Israel. He will return like a thief in the night to everyone except Christians.
     
  4. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    You might want to read Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23 again, assuming you have before. Yeshua is not showing up on this planet again until the corporate leadership of Israel acknowledges their offense, turns to Him, and proclaims Him as their Messiah. That will be the right time. And it is coming quickly.
     
  5. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lots of answers already so I will just add my training in this and what I teach based on Scripture.

    I am convinced we are in the last days because of one major event--May 14, 1948!

    That was when Israel was rebirthed as a nation and it was prophesied it would happen in the end times!

    June of 1967 added more evidence to this when Israel regained control of their capital city Jerusalem.

    Everything else including nations against nation and kingdom ....(WW 1 and WW2 ) are labor pains!
     
  6. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    YOu are absolutely correct! Israel will finally have the veil removed, pray for Jesus to return in the last three days of teh 70th week of Daniel (the great trib) and this prompts Jesus to return to save Israel int eh rock city of Petra from the antichrist and the worlds armies!
     
  7. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Yep. But adding to that idea...,

    It is possible the two days and third day if Hosea 6 could be tied in with 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 and be a veiled reference that implies the 2000 years from Yeshua’s return to Israel’s restoration, and that Israel would be fully restored with Yeshua as King on the 3rd day which could be the 1000 year reign of Messiah here.

    Not being dogmatic about it, but the possibility is there.
     
  8. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand because Peter said a day with the Lord is as a thousand years! But Peter was making a comparison to the patience of the Lord and not some veiled reference to 2,000 years. Let us look at Hosea 6: 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    What would that mean? If it means returned to the land then the diaspora would have had to happen in 52 B.C.It it means Israel getting saved, that is future and when did that 2000 years start?

    As for Peter:

    2 Peter 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    the little as that appears twice lets us know he is making a comparison and not making some kind of prophetic statement in its context.
     
  9. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    But the day/thousand idea is supported in both OT and NT, in keeping with the Torah requirement regarding evidence to support a matter. And we should all know that such things can have multiple applications. So the assertion I made is not something out of bounds scriptural.

    And Israel will not realize its full restoration under the authority of Yeshua till the kingdom is established on earth. You seem to be using a secular approach to the issue.

    Keep in mind, until 1948 Israel had not been a sovereign nation since the Babylonian exile, in accordance to the scripture. And when they do come together as a nation, it would initially be in unbelief. But the 2000 years of this discussion started at Matthew 23:39 where Yeshua is affirming Hosea 5:15.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  10. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I will not do spiritual gymnastics to try to find a spot for two thousand years to fit!

    But we are supposed to have 6000 years of creation then the millennium and then eternity. Well that is blown! Unless we want to say that creation took place 3981 B.C.

    No I realize that the kingdom for Israel is established after the tribulation and the 90 days following! But 1948 was a fulfillment of prophesy! Remember all prophesy will have its fulfillment here on earth and even if it appears secular- it is still the hand of God!

    And Matthew 23:39 could not start the clock! Jerusalem saw Jesus at least twice more!
     
  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Ok, go with that. We are getting nowhere and you are becoming sarcastic so time to drop it.
     
  12. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sarcastic just realistic!

    I fully understand that many many saints believe in the day=1000 year concept!
    But if we understand that Jesus is the God of grammar and language construction, it would also protect us from bad ideas!

    Let us look at the context of Peter!

    2 Peter 3:
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    The context is about the patience of the Lord towards the lost and that He is longsuffering! It is not making a a chronological statement! Those two little words "as" let us know it is not a literal but metaphorical statement!

    A text taken out of context, becomes a pretext!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    That a 1000 years on earth is equal to one day to God in heaven, is literal is proved by the exact 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another exact 2000 years; Abraham to Jesus, and now, almost completed; another 2000 years until Jesus Returns. As He prophesied; Luke 13:32....on the third 'day' I will receive My reward, that will be the Millennial Kingdom.
    Making the complete period of God's experiment with mankind; 7000 years to us and 7 days to Him. Paralleled by the Genesis account of Creation.
     
  14. Akita Suggagaki

    Akita Suggagaki Well-Known Member

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    Then why can so few agree on prophecies?
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Because they have been fooled by false theories and unbiblical ideas.
    Jesus warned His followers to be careful to not be deceived. This means it is possible for even the elect to be led astray.
    Paul tells us that in the last days, many will refuse the truth and believe lies. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
    So, we must be very careful to believe only that which has full Bible support and to reject ideas that rely on inferences and assumptions. The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is the prime example and just because millions do believe it, is in no way any proof that it is true.
     
  16. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well then you are one of the only people who knows when Adam was formed (at least the year) and the only one who knows the date of Abrahams birth or whatever part of His life you count from. Also true for Jesus. The most adept scholars I know (Eddersheim and Fruchtenbaum) both put Jesus birth anywhere from 4-6 B.C and sometime in the fall. I would love to see the research that lets you get to exactly 2000 years for adam to Abraham amd Abraham to Jesus!

    I am very familiar with the 7day=7000 year hypothesis. If Ussher is near correct we have already been past 6000 years since creation by 15 years!

    If the Jewish calendar is correct we still have another 221 years to go!
     
  17. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    That 7000 year plan of God has been part of the collective thought of Biblical Hebrews since before the time of Yeshua. The concept of the 6 days of creation being equated to 6000 years along with the Shabbat being the 1000 years of the Messiah is all thru the writings of the Hebrews. And I am not convinced the Hebrew calendar is correct. There has been debate, even among the Hebrew people, over the centuries that there has been a mistake in the calculating the times of the kings and it has thrown the calendar off. Some suggest that we are closer to the 6000 year point than the calendar shows.

    One can hardly be dogmatic regarding exact days of each of the 2000 year period's beginning and end, but that doesn't negate the concept. Just like the exact point of a day beginning and ending cannot be determined by the average person when we use the Hebrew concept of a day beginning at sundown of the previous day from the creation account where it states the evening and the morning were each day. Unless one has actual scientific data on when the sun sets, the average person does not know the exact minute that a day ends and begins. This is why the Hebrews were meticulous about posting people in the land who would observe to see when the last sliver of sun disappeared so that the new day could be declared by the religious leadership in terms of months and festivals.

    The writers of the NT stated repeatedly about being in the "last days". That would be true when one looks at a typical week. The first four days of the week had passed with the coming of Yeshua. The Apostles and everyone since Shavuot when the church began were now in the "latter days" of the week. I am convinced that the NT writers also understood and embraced the concept of the 7000 year plan of Yahweh and how it equates to the creation week.

    And the idea is not that far fetched. Especially in light of other similar things in scripture. Like how the names of the genealogy from Adam to Noah, when their meanings are put in a sentence, outline the entire plan of salvation by Yahweh. One would have a though time convincing me that Hebrew scribes over the centuries took it upon themselves to bury the NT Gospel message in the genealogy from Adam to Noah. The fingerprints of the Holy Spirit are all over the scriptures.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The Jewish calendar is obviously wrong. Rabbi Hilliel made a error of about 220 years when he set it in the Middle ages.
    Ussher was also out by about 30 years.
    I don't know Jesus birth date, but I do know when He commenced His Ministry. I hesitate to post the Biblical timeline as I have compiled it, as when I have done so before, the swine's have trampled on it. Matthew 7:8 So; only proper and valid comments, please.
    7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

    Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BCE subtracted back from 586 BCE, from:

    Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 6:7 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10 Our year 2314.5 BCE

    Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4 Total years so far = 2000


    Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8

    Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BCE.

    [Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

    1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:33 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18-20 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year of 586 BCE.

    Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

    586 BCE + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 CE, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

    3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years from Adam to Jesus.



    January 2019 CE - 29.5 CE = 1989.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

    1989.5 + 4000 = 5989.5 years, is where we are now. 5989.5 + 10.5 = 6000 years

    2019 CE + 10.5 = 2029.5 CE Exactly 2000 years to the end of the present Church age.

    4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

    7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.

    Those who have been found worthy will go into Eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5


    Addendum: Because Jesus worked in His mission on earth for 3½ years, the two ‘days’ prophesied in Hosea 6:2 and confirmed by Jesus in Luke 13:32, that He will spend in heaven from Ascension to Return, may have the 3½ years added to it, making a total of 2003.5 years since 29.5 CE = 2033 for the commencement of the Millennium.
     
  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Thanks Keras for work you put into that. A quick look over it I gave and it looks solid.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  20. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I guess we will have to wait to see if Rabbi Hillel is wrong or not! why do you think so?

    Why do you think Ussher off?

    Jesus was born 4-6 B.C. I am curious, why do you use the secular BCE and CE??

    Did you adjust for the errors when we went from Julian to Gregorian calendar?

    where do you see in Scripture that God decreed 7000 years for mankind?

    I see you use an allegorical method of hermeneutic.
    Because Hosea is a direct reference to Israel in the Tribulation aand is in reference to the last 3 days of the week of Daniel when all of Israel will be saved, they will say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord and rev. 19 occurs when Jesus returns to fight the Antichrist.

    Why do you connect Hosea with Jesus in Luke? One is a prophesy of Israel and another is Jesus declaring His own ministry?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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