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Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Tishri1, Jan 8, 2012.

Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

  1. Yes we are saved by Torah, not thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.

  2. No we are saved thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    I think that Abram continued in the covenant spiritually, thereby giving his consent.
     
  2. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Spiritually, yes; but there were no actual responsibilities for Abraham concerning this Covenant that I can see. It appears to all have been predicated on what Abraham had already done, believe, obey, up to that point. That Hashem expected him to continue to do the same is a given, but I don't think it's actually mentioned as a "responsibility" for this particular covenant. It seems really more of a Promise but Hashem put it in terms of a blood covenant and He alone cut the covenant.
     
  3. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Actually it makes sense as to why Adonai put Abraham into a deep sleep while he was walking thru the animal pieces - so Abraham couldn't mess it up with oaths.
    If someone was making such a promise/covenant with you, expecting nothing in return, would you sit by silently or go, 'Adonai, really, you can trust me. I will _____ and i'll certainly not do _____, and I'll do _____." And then not long down the road, poof goes the promise of the land.
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Leave your home and go to the land I have promised you
    Keep the covenant.. obey my statutes, sacrifice your only son, trust me your wife will be pregnant,
     
  5. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Look at what was required of Abram concerning the circumcision. His household, servants and generations...
     
  6. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    That's what I've said, it was made with Abraham based on past experience with Abraham. But it was a promise/covenant that God never wanted broken, so he fixed it so that it couldn't be broken by anyone but Himself and He wouldn't ever break it.

    Anyway, I voted Tish. Under your explanations I agree, it's grace from God that we all get saved by the Son's completed work.
     
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Would be interesting to see if someone voted for the first option just for the sake of it--or if they did, what that would lead to:)
     
  8. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I meant by rocket science is its a simple question, yes there are always if ands and buts... this is bottom line thinking here

    :thumbsup::thumbsup: now we're talking
     
  9. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    I'll have to agree to differ. I cannot see why we feel it is ok to ignore the one thing that makes Christianity AND MJism different from all other religions and philosophies: the resurrection. Grace is not unique to Christians/MJism, the resurrection is. The bottom line is that he was raised from the dead to ascend to the Father so that the H/Spirit could come to dwell within us - it certainly doesn't come under 'ifs & buts' on a Christian Forum; to class the resurrection as that is dishonouring to G_d.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  10. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    did you forget to read the rest of the thread?
     
  11. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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  12. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    No, I read it - that was the worrying bit.
     
  13. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    then dont vote ...simple:thumbsup:
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    What you noted here also goes in line with the theme of how one can be saved via placing their trust in salvation--but the glory that could be theirs may be lost by what it is that they choose to do...and in that sense, salvation is lost.


    I'm reminded of something another said on the issue--from Randy Alcorn (Probe Ministries - The Law of Rewards )
    .

    Gladiator begins with a powerful scene. Just before engaging the German barbarians in battle, General Maximus addresses some of his Roman soldiers.


    Although Maximus was a pagan, his statement is entirely consistent with biblical Christianity, particularly the Bible’s teaching on eternal rewards.


    In The Law of Rewards Randy Alcorn writes: “While our faith determines our eternal destination, our behavior determines our eternal rewards”. The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by God’s grace, through personal faith in Christ, apart from any works whatever (Eph. 2:8-9). But it also teaches, with equal clarity, that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that we may be recompensed for what we have done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Cor. 5:10). This judgment (which is only for believers) is not to determine whether or not we are saved. Its purpose is to evaluate our works and determine whether we shall receive, or lose, eternal rewards (1 Cor. 3:10-15/1 Corinthians 3 ).


    Alcorn writes, “Our works are what we have done with our resources—time, energy, talents, money, possessions

    This raises some important questions. What are we doing with the resources that God has entrusted to us? Are we seeking to build God’s kingdom, in God’s way, empowered by God’s Spirit? Or are we merely engaged in empire-building for our own glory? Are we investing our resources in reaching the world for Christ, making disciples, and helping the poor and needy? Or are we only concerned with satisfying our own immediate wants and desires?


    It’s here that the worldview dimensions of our subject can be most clearly seen. Most of us would probably find it difficult to use our resources in the service of God or our fellow man if we thought that this life was all there is and that death is the end of our personal existence. But Christianity says that there’s more – a lot more. And if Christianity is true, then Maximus was right: “What we do in life echoes in eternity.” Randy Alcorn has observed, “The missing ingredient in the lives of countless Christians today is motivation. . . . The doctrine of eternal rewards for our obedience is the neglected key to unlocking our motivation"


    Of course, the article's more exhaustive on the subject and would be a excellent read for anyone interested. That said, some scriptures to consider:​





    Proverbs 19:17
    He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.
    Proverbs 19:16-18




    Matthew 5:12
    Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
    Matthew 5:11-13 / Matthew 5



    Luke 6:23
    "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
    Luke 6:22-24Luke 6/Luke 6:35




    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
    Luke 6:34-36Luke 6



    Matthew 5:46
    If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
    Matthew 5:45-47 Matthew 5





    Matthew 6:1
    [ Giving to the Needy ] "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
    Matthew 6:1-3/Matthew 6



    Matthew 10:42
    And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
    Matthew 10:41-42 / Matthew 10

    Mark 9:41
    I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
    Mark 9:40-42 Mark 9


    2 Corinthians 5:9-11 / 2 Corinthians 5
    9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


    The Ministry of Reconciliation
    11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.




    Ephesians 6:7-9 / Ephesians 6
    7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.


    Colossians 3:23-25 Colossians 3
    23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving

    Hebrews 10
    35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
    "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
    38But my righteous one[] will live by faith.
    And if he shrinks back,
    I will not be pleased with him."[] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.


    Hebrews 11:26
    He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
    Hebrews 11:25-27 Hebrews 11


    Many more besides that, but the theme of not simply living right for the sake of it does run clear throughout the Word of God. He's a Father.....and that I think says something. Anyone with teenagers realizes they should honor you because of the position/love you have for them. If they do right, cool----but there's always an incentive for serving (i.e. allowance, privelages given, etc). If I go to work, I don't jsut do that because it "felt good"....No one works for free and it's not wrong to want one, which is part of the overall Message of the Gospel----that when you leave all to serve the Lord, you'll not fail to be rewarded...__________________
     
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Actually, I was always under the impression that it was the Arab people who the Lord blessed in inventing Algebra..and the Arabs were around long before anything of "Moslem" came up. One good book on the issue was by Tika Downey called How the Arabs Invented Algebra: The History of the Concept of Variables:)
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Details.. details... ;) you do have a amazing collection of them..:D :wave:
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Like the old idiom says, "the devil is in the details" --and be through enough things in life to see how/when missing that can lead to a world of mess. Apart from that, it's just how I'm wired...seeking truth (Proverbs 24:4-6), while having a fun time with it:) And on some things, of course, not really tripping...

    With the Arabs, Arabic contributions is one of the passions I've had growing up since there are so many of them people don't understand--and growing up, when people often made comments that're deragatory toward them for a myriad of reasons while never seeing where they may need to be thankful (just as it was with so many other groups, be it Jews or Blacks or Hispanics and others making contributions), keeping some of those things in mind helped to give clarity. With Algebra, there've been alot of wonderful lectures that I'm always wondering why many aren't aware of them. With algebra, although it was within Arabic culture, those within Islam furthered it in many other ways. There was an excellent lecture on the subject by Professor Robin Wilson on that issue that gives alot of food for thought (seen here )

    Look who's talking;) I'm always amazed where you get some of the amazing material you've often referenced, especially on Jewish history..and I'm ever thankful for that. Alot of those details you bring up can greatly change how you see it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  18. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Even Jews believe they are saved by grace.
     
  19. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I like this^^ :)
     
  20. jcpro

    jcpro Newbie

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    salvation means something very different in Judaism and salvation by grace is meaningless to Jews.
     
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