Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

[Avodat]

However we toss words around, or make fanciful accommodation for all manner of interpretations, the resurrection has to be there because without it all the other bits of Yeshua's life cycle mean absolutely nothing at all. Without bodily resurrection he was just another man who lived a holy life, did miracles and suffered death because of the religious authorities; it happened to a lot people in those times.
No resurrection, no vote.

Yonah - yes, you are right!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Paul's statement that "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17, NIV), right?

Scripture that may give more clarity on what the scriptures say about the necessity of the BLOOD purchasing the salvation of saints.

Revelation 5:10
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[a] on the earth.”
​

John 6:52-54

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


​

Acts 20:27-29
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock

Romans 3:24-26
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.....


Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8


Colossians 1:19-21
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.



Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.



Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

1 John 1:6-8
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.




Revelation 1:4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.





​

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church, while His resurrection confirmed it (like a receipt/confirmation) and opened up the way for the Spirit to keep us.

Interestingly enough, the concept of the blood being what saved came across as cannibalism toward outsiders to the world of believers...and they constantly had to defend against it.

For good study resources:

• Symbols of Jesus: a Christology of symbolic engagement - Page 64
• The Jewish temple and the Christian church: a series of discourses ... - Page 320
• In the shadow of the temple: Jewish influences on early Christianity - Page 391

Ultimately, as Sister Yedia said, the death of Christ was but one part of a whole---and without a resurrection the death wouldn't count for much (even though it redeemed us). His death was but a part of a whole---and Christ's rising completed much, just as the Lord testified. For Christ relied upon the Spirit for the Ministry and the Power of the HOLY Spirit to raise the Body of Christ from the Grave (as he noted in Acts 2:26-28, Acts 2:30-32, Acts 13:27-38, Romans 1:3-5 , Romans 8:10-12, Hebrews 9:13-15, etc )......with it being established that the Spirit of Christ was present with the Father...and this is said in light of what the Word says when Luke 23:46 ( Mt 27:50, Mk 15:37, Jn 19:30, etc) tells us that Christ gave up His SPirit...and while the Physical Body of Christ remained, the Spirit of Christ left...and scripture shows where His spirit would go: into the Father's hands.....just like Jesus told the thief on the cross when saying "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), even though his Physical Body was still in the GRAVE...and very similar to how Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive his spirit (Acts 7:55-60).

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

​

Other texts to consider with the resurrection are where he addressed the issue of Christ being God and yet explaining the reality of his coming with the emphasis on his being a man ( Phillippians 2, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:15, etc)--being perfected/living life as a Perfect man and experiencing growth/development as all men do in His PHYSICAL nature ( Hebrews 5:4-10, Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, etc ) in order to aid us in our own growth of becoming like Him, both Co-Heirs with Him and "Sons of the Lord" ( Romans 6-8). For Christ's divine authority is meaningless unless, with respect to his humanity, he has been raised from the dead.....as only a Resurrected Lord can be our cohem gadol, interceding with the Father on our behalf (Romans 8:34, Matthew 4:14, etc), only a resurrected man can be the firstfruits of the resurrection promised to us (Romans 8:23-29, I Corinthians 15) and only a resurrected Messiah can come to rule in glory and fulfill the universal Jewish expectation of final deliverance for the nations of Israel.

Luke 2:51-52
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
​

Hebrews 2:7
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
​

"

Titus 3:3
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone
​

 

[yedida]

This is an excellent explanation. Thank You Yedida! But you left out the part where Y'shua is the personification of the grace of the Father and how Y'shua is also the personification of Torah (the Word) so therefore Torah is the written manifestation of the grace of the Father. But I'll give you a pass on that one.

Speaking of the Resurrection of Messiah, I am reminded that just as He was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world (and all of the beautiful studies that show the great detail in which He prophetically fulfilled the part of the Pesach lamb, from entering His Fathers House to be examined by the priests four days prior to His sacrifice, all the way up to the point where He said 'It is finished', echoing the very words of the High Priest in the Temple as the last lamb was slain), that this is His first Appointed Time according to Leviticus 23. So how did He prophetically fulfill the Resurrection?

While pride is equated with being leavened or 'puffed up' in scripture, it reminds us that Y'shua 'humbled Himself even unto death' thereby fulfilling Hag HaMatzah, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, His second Appointed Time. Then there is His third Appointed Time, Yom HaBikkurim or the Day of First Fruits. It is prescribed to occur on the day after the weekly Sabbath during the Passover week in Leviticus 23, so it should come as no surprise that the Messianics quote the scriptures that state that He is the 'First Fruits' of the resurrection in one scripture and the 'First Fruits' of those that slept in another. Nor should it surprise us that our Christian brothers and sister believe He resurrected on the first day of the week, the day the Roman calendar described as Sunday, the day of worship of the sun god Mithras. This is after all, the day after the weekly Sabbath. So again, we are both right (except for Sabbath being on the day of the Sun and all that Mitras stuff).

My point in all of this is that our Messiah, Master, Brother and Friend was really into doing the written instruction called Torah in order that the grace of the Father might be manifested toward man in the manner of the Resurrection unto Salvation. And since Messiah instructed us to keep His commandments and to pick up our cross and follow Him, to me that means both 'Do as I say' and 'Do as I do'. Well, with Him being the Word (Torah) and all, I think you can see how the line between 'saved by grace' and 'saved by works' becomes real bblluurrrryy.

director: Standby camera one.
camera one: Standing by on one.
director: Cut to camera one and cue Phil.
director: Standby camera two.
"Well Jim, from here on the sidelines, I thought I saw him bobble the ball a little, but he sure got the job done. How did you see it?
director: Cue camera two to a split screen shot. We need a tight shot on both cameras. That's it.
"Thanks Phil and you were right, in paragraph one he maneuvered well, getting into the clear and the pass from Yedida was perfect."
"You sure are right there. That was no rookie move."
"But in paragraph two Phil, that may have been one of the longest parenthetical remarks I've seen in a while. All I could do was hold my breath."
"You are so right Jim..."
"Phil, I'm not sure he bobbled it. He just seemed to let it hang out there forever! But when he pulled it in and crossed the goal line, the crowd went wild."
"What's that Jim? I can barely hear you..."
"Thanks Phil. We are going to have to take a break. But we'll be back, right after these messages."
director: Aaaaaannnnd we're clear!

Thank you for your encouraging words and

--> doesn't do your directing justice, sure wish we had an "rofl" smilie!!

 

[yedida]

Scripture that may give more clarity on what the scriptures say about the necessity of the BLOOD purchasing the salvation of saints.

Revelation 5:10
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[a] on the earth.”
​

John 6:52-54

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


​

Acts 20:27-29
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock

Romans 3:24-26
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life.....


Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8


Colossians 1:19-21
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.



Hebrews 9:11-13
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.



Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



Hebrews 13:11-13
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

1 John 1:6-8
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.




Revelation 1:4
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.





​

The early Jewish church understood the concept of redeemption by blood as being based on what occurred with the Levitical sacrifices when a spotless lamb was presented before the priests, sacrificed and atonement happened with the shedding of blood since life was in the blood....and with Christ, His blood is what justified the believer, according to the early church, while His resurrection confirmed it (like a receipt/confirmation) and opened up the way for the Spirit to keep us.

Interestingly enough, the concept of the blood being what saved came across as cannibalism toward outsiders to the world of believers...and they constantly had to defend against it.

For good study resources:

• Symbols of Jesus: a Christology of symbolic engagement - Page 64
• The Jewish temple and the Christian church: a series of discourses ... - Page 320
• In the shadow of the temple: Jewish influences on early Christianity - Page 391

Ultimately, as Sister Yedia said, the death of Christ was but one part of a whole---as without the Resurrection, the death would not mean a much---and Christ's rising completed things, just as the Lord testified. For Christ relied upon the Spirit for the Ministry and the Power of the HOLY Spirit to raise the Body of Christ from the Grave (as he noted in Acts 2:26-28, Acts 2:30-32, Acts 13:27-38, Romans 1:3-5 , Romans 8:10-12, Hebrews 9:13-15, etc )......with it being established that the Spirit of Christ was present with the Father...and this is said in light of what the Word says when Luke 23:46 ( Mt 27:50, Mk 15:37, Jn 19:30, etc) tells us that Christ gave up His SPirit...and while the Physical Body of Christ remained, the Spirit of Christ left...and scripture shows where His spirit would go: into the Father's hands.....just like Jesus told the thief on the cross when saying "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), even though his Physical Body was still in the GRAVE...and very similar to how Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive his spirit (Acts 7:55-60).

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

​

Other texts to consider are where he addressed the issue of Christ being God and yet explaining the reality of his coming with the emphasis on his being a man ( Phillippians 2, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:15, etc)--being perfected/living life as a Perfect man and experiencing growth/development as all men do in His PHYSICAL nature ( Hebrews 5:4-10, Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, etc ) in order to aid us in our own growth of becoming like Him, both Co-Heirs with Him and "Sons of the Lord" ( Romans 6-8). For Christ's divine authority is meaningless unless, with respect to his humanity, he has been raised from the dead.....as only a Resurrected Lord can be our cohem gadol, interceding with the Father on our behalf (Romans 8:34, Matthew 4:14, etc), only a resurrected man can be the firstfruits of the resurrection promised to us (Romans 8:23-29, I Corinthians 15) and only a resurrected Messiah can come to rule in glory and fulfill the universal Jewish expectation of final deliverance for the nations of Israel.

Luke 2:51-52
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.​

Luke 2:39-40

Hebrews 2:7
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.​

"

Actually there is one more part, that so far, I think has been overlooked - His Ascension! His Ascension to where? The Right Hand of the Father! Otherwise, just another Lazarus, raised only to die again in the future. You think?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The whole actual thing is that we are saved by the grace of God (not Yeshua) through faith in Yeshua's completed work, sacrifice/death and resurrection and is evidenced by good works and obedience to His commands. It's complicated and so very simple.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Actually there is one more part, that so far, I think has been overlooked - His Ascension! His Ascension to where? The Right Hand of the Father! Otherwise, just another Lazarus, raised only to die again in the future. You think?

Good point and thanks for pointing that out

Makes me think of something one of my friends said once when the question was asked "If you could have Jesus present with you like it was with the disciples...or have the HS who came afterward in Acts, which would you think you need more?"--and in viewpoint was the Spirit since that's the one Yeshua was in fellowship with and said wouldn't come to be with others if He didn't leave.

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:6-8

Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”


6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Acts 1:3-5 Acts 1
​

I've often wondered if it's wrong to want to be present with Yeshua in the flesh more so than with the Holy Spirit whom we have daily and who points to Him ( John 14:25-27, John 16:12-15)

 

[Avodat]

Actually there is one more part, that so far, I think has been overlooked - His Ascension! His Ascension to where? The Right Hand of the Father! Otherwise, just another Lazarus, raised only to die again in the future. You think?

Lazarus' raising from death was not the same as Yeshua's resurrection. Yeshua was begotten, not created. The others who were raised from death were born of man's decision, not created.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Actually there is one more part, that so far, I think has been overlooked - His Ascension! His Ascension to where? The Right Hand of the Father! Otherwise, just another Lazarus, raised only to die again in the future. You think?

Can't really do the job of a priest intercedding for the entire world unless you arise to be present for duty in the place you're to be doing it ( Hebrews 7:24-26, Hebrews 7, Romans 8:33-35/ Romans 8 , etc )


It's interesting to consider, though, that Lazarus wasn't the first person raised to life ( with at least 2 others raised, the widow's son and Jairus's daughter--all reflective of the miracles of Elisha and Elijah in raising others from the dead)--with the death/resurrection of Lazarus ( John 11:42-44 / John 11 ) not even being enough to persuade the religious leaders who were determined to kill Christ...for even after he was raised, they made plans to kill Lazarus as well due to the attention that miracle brought to Christ (John 12:9-11 / John 12 , John 12:16-18 ), proving what Christ said when it came to willful ignorance not allowing others to believe even the mightiest miracles ( Luke 16:30-31 ). The fact that they tried to cover up the raising of Christ by having to tell others to lie ( Matthew 27:63-65 /Matthew 27 ) is wild enough--but indeed, his tomb is EMPTY

Risen-Hazakim feat Shai Linne​

Something that has always seemed astounding is that when Christ died, the scriptures declare how the tombs of many righteous men were opened and they came back to life.

Matthew 27:53
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

​

Although you have to wonder how they'd feel coming out of eternity and back into the land of the living again---knowing they were going to die again--it's interesting to consider how many times Christ seemed to use the miracle of raising others as a testament to who He is. One source, known as The Bible Knowledge Commentary, had some very good answers that give alot to consider.

The tombs of many holy (righteous) people (v. 52) were opened, probably at a Jerusalem cemetery. The NIV suggests that these saints were resurrected when Jesus died and then went into Jerusalem after Jesus’ resurrection. A number of commentators agree with this view. Many others, however, say that since Christ is the firstfruits of the dead (1 Cor. 15:23), their resurrection did not occur till He was raised. In this view, the phrase “after Jesus’ resurrection” goes with the words were raised to life and came out of the tombs. This is possible in the Greek, and is suggested in the KJV and the NASB. The tombs, then, broke open at Christ’s death, probably by the earthquake, thus heralding Christ’s triumph in death over sin, but the bodies were not raised till Christ was raised.

These people returned to Jerusalem, (the Holy City) where they were recognized by friends and family. Like Lazarus (John 11:43-44), Jairus’ daughter (Luke 8:52-56), and the widow of Nain’s son (Luke 7:13-15), they too passed through physical death again. Or some say they may have been raised with glorified bodies like the Lord’s. Walvoord suggests this event was “a fulfillment of the Feast of the Firstfruits of harvest mentioned in Leviticus 23:10-14. On that occasion, as a token of the coming harvest, the people would bring a handful of grain to the priest. The resurrection of these saints, occurring after Jesus Himself was raised, is a token of the coming harvest when all the saints will be raised” (Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come, p. 236).
​

 

[Yahudim]

I'm a little disappointed that no one commented on this part of my earlier post. No takers, huh?

*snip*​

[We know] Y'shua is the personification of the grace of the Father and how Y'shua is also the personification of Torah (the Word) so therefore Torah is the written manifestation of the grace of the Father.

*snip*​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

By Grace are you saved, however we're to work out our salvation, and do good works because we are saved.

The way it's worded, I've picked 2 because it's obvious that no other option will be given.

Good stance to take, IMHO

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Since Torah is the Word of God and Yeshua is the incarnate Word of God, consequently there is a direct link between both. Yeshua is the Spirit of the Word and the Torah is His tool. By own effort, one cannot become righteous with the Torah, we need faith in Yeshua. There is no opposition between both but synergy, since both are from God. Yeshua shows that on one way or the other, our inherent weakness leads us to transgression. Through redemption by Yeshua makes us straight.
Let us take an extreme example:
Be holy, for I, the Lord, your God, am Holy (Leviticus 19.2), does not imply equality of Holiness.
Yeshua commanded:
But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.(Mat. 5.48). Only Yeshuah can satisfy to be equally perfect as the Father. He asks us to strive to that perfection. Because if your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness that of scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven. (Mat17.20)
If I recite the Shema in the morning, the second item is shema Yisrael Adonai Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Then I conclude in asking for forgiveness for any transgression during the night and during the day.
To conclude option 1 is false, option 2 is right but incomplete. James expressed the complete option,
Faith without work (work of Yeshua in us) is dead. (James 2:14)

Thanks for saying what you did, especially where you noted (in accordance with John 1) that "Yeshua is the Spirit of the Word and the Torah is His tool. "

 

[Lulav]

poll coming too...wait for it.......

Not sure why we are told to wait, when you make a thread and want to include a poll it doesn't post until you fill in your question and answers..............

Anyway I must say this is the most confusing poll I have ever come across.

There is no explanation why the poll is being made for one thing, but I don't see how these two choices are opposites, which they should be when offering only two choices?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

Poll Options Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

• Yes we are saved by Torah, not thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.
• No we are saved thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.

The Question

Who believes this to be true?

We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

The choices should be Yes or no, meaning yes you believe it, or no you don't.

But to mix things up with the yes and no with separate conditions..............

The 'Yes' answer includes more than the original question asked
.
Yes we are saved by Torah, not thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.


Note that there are two 'through's(spelled differently, but there) in this choice.

Meaning we are not saved Through Grace or Through Yeshua's death. Death was not mentioned in the poll's question yet it is present in both choices.

I think to avoid confusion the poll should have read like this

Poll Options Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

• Yes---We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua
• No--- We are not saved by Torah but by Faith/Grace in Yeshua

I can't vote on this, sorry.

 

[GuardianShua]

The third choice consists of two choices: 'take it' OR 'leave it'

That is funny.

 

[GuardianShua]

Not sure why we are told to wait, when you make a thread and want to include a poll it doesn't post until you fill in your question and answers..............

Anyway I must say this is the most confusing poll I have ever come across.

There is no explanation why the poll is being made for one thing, but I don't see how these two choices are opposites, which they should be when offering only two choices?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

Poll Options Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

• Yes we are saved by Torah, not thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.
• No we are saved thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.

The Question

Who believes this to be true?

We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

The choices should be Yes or no, meaning yes you believe it, or no you don't.

But to mix things up with the yes and no with separate conditions..............

The 'Yes' answer includes more than the original question asked
.
Yes we are saved by Torah, not thru grace by faith in Yeshua through his death.


Note that there are two 'through's(spelled differently, but there) in this choice.

Meaning we are not saved Through Grace or Through Yeshua's death. Death was not mentioned in the poll's question yet it is present in both choices.

I think to avoid confusion the poll should have read like this

Poll Options Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

• Yes---We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua
• No--- We are not saved by Torah but by Faith/Grace in Yeshua

I can't vote on this, sorry.

A person can be saved by keeping the Torah, but they still have to go through Christ. Yahwah has placed this world in Yahshua's control. There will be no getting around that.

 

[visionary]

A person can be saved by keeping the Torah, but they still have to go through Christ. Yahwah has placed this world in Yahshua's control. There will be no getting around that.

Yep that is what Torah teachs

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A person can be saved by keeping the Torah, but they still have to go through Christ. Yahwah has placed this world in Yahshua's control. There will be no getting around that.

Kind of makes you wonder if those who're Jews in Judaism/don't currently trust in Yeshua (and actively choose to do so even in knowing of it) will make it to eternity with the Lord regardless due to their keeping of Torah...which would be a mini form of universalism, similar to what is said of babies who perish and how they automatically go to be with Yeshua.

Some of it has been advocated before by others such as John Hagee with what he discussed called Dual Covenant Theology. And other Messianics have given it alot of serious addressment thankfully.

• The Dangers of Dual Covenant Theology : Line of Fire
• Dr. Michael Brown - The Dangers of Dual Covenant Theology ...
• Welcome to True Light Ministries' Blog » Dr. Michael Brown and John Hagee...
• Sid Roth - It's Supernatural Messianic Vision: Is There Serious Error in the New Book, "In Defense of Israel?"
  

...




Everyone has to go through Yeshua, as He is the Gate--but I wonder often what to make of it when the apostles often noted that those who have heard of Yeshua in this life/reject Him to keep Torah can never be saved:

Acts 28:27
23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
​

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b


] 30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

Acts 13:45-47


45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “‘I have made you[] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[]”

Acts 4:12
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” ()

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin .

Galatians 2:20
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Galatians 3:10-11
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
​

Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; John 9:39-41). ...and ohn wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23). And seeing how many rejected the Messiah, it's no wonder why Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart: so many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). It was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

Apart from those who've never understood who Christ is fully (or who really don't know/never have heard), it doesn't seem that scripture gives much room for those choosing to actively reject him....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Actually there is one more part, that so far, I think has been overlooked - His Ascension! His Ascension to where? The Right Hand of the Father! Otherwise, just another Lazarus, raised only to die again in the future. You think?

I wonder if scripture gives room for saying that Lazarus necessarily died....as it could be the case he lived on to be with the Lord similar to Enoch and Elijah

 

[yedida]

I wonder if scripture gives room for saying that Lazarus necessarily died....as it could be the case he lived on to be with the Lord similar to Enoch and Elijah

There is a distinction between Lazarus and the other two - Eliyahu and Enoch didn't physically die, they were taken (so it seems) alive.
Also, it seems that Lazarus and not Yeshua would be setting precedent in that he was raised from the dead to be with the Lord forever before Yeshua had done such. You think?

 

[Yahudim]

There are other cases in Tanakh where people were resurrected. Seems some things aren't so easily catagorized.

 

[Lulav]

There are other cases in Tanakh where people were resurrected. Seems some things aren't so easily catagorized.

This is true