Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

[Avodat]

I would vote 2 if pushed, but otherwise not the way it is worded.

 

[MessianicMommy]

By Grace are you saved, however we're to work out our salvation, and do good works because we are saved.

The way it's worded, I've picked 2 because it's obvious that no other option will be given.

 

[Avodat]

By Grace are you saved, however we're to work out our salvation, and do good works because we are saved.

The way it's worded, I've picked 2 because it's obvious that no other option will be given.

But we are NOT saved by Yeshua's death.

 

[yonah_mishael]

But we are NOT saved by Yeshua's death.

 

[yedida]

Wthout a resurrection the death wouldn't count for much....His death was but a part of a whole.

BTW, how has every little thing been with you lately?

 

[Avodat]

We do not gain salvation by his birth, his life or his death; if he just died then he can't be Messiah. This is what those who believe G_d died on the cross, say: if he just died then G_d is dead! Yeshua didn't, and G_d is not dead.

This is not just pedantry, nor is it about semantics, it is the essence of our faith. Without the resurrection there can be no salvation. So, no, I am not very willing to vote.

 

[GuardianShua]

It is by Yahwah's grace through our faith in Yahshua we are saved. Even so, that does not mean that God's commands have been done away with. Yahshua is God's salvation. Yahshua: Interpretation, God's Salvation, translation according to ancient Hebrew, Life Saver.

 

[Avodat]

It is by Yahwah's grace through our faith in Yahshua we are saved. Even so, that does not mean that God's commands have been done away with. Yahshua is God's salvation. Yahshua: Interpretation, God's Salvation, translation according to ancient Hebrew, Life Saver.

Not if the resurrection is not there. It has little to do, in one sense, with G_d's Law - let's not side track the issue. He is only our salvation if the resurrection is recognised. It is that that makes us Christians or Messianics.

 

[GuardianShua]

Not if the resurrection is not there. It has little to do, in one sense, with G_d's Law - let's not side track the issue. He is only our salvation if the resurrection is recognised. It is that that makes us Christians or Messianics.

The resurrection only shows us the power of God to bring us back into being. A person can have faith in Yahwah and Yahshua, and the resurrection; but they can still lose their life because of their unrighteousness. Keeping Yahwah's commands does count toward our righteousness.

 

[yedida]

The resurrection only shows us the power of God to bring us back into being. A person can have faith in Yahwah and Yahshua, and the resurrection; but they can still lose their life because of their unrighteousness. Keeping Yahwah's commands does count toward our righteousness.

Yes, that is what everyone is sayiing, the death alone did not satisfy. The resurrection must play in there and obedience to the commands as well.
Neither of the choices given are complete answers.
I did choose #2 because it was the closer to the truth of the two. I kind of wish I'd stuck to everyone else's guns.....oh well, I don't think I'm allowed to unvote.

 

[GuardianShua]

Yes, that is what everyone is sayiing, the death alone did not satisfy. The resurrection must play in there and obedience to the commands as well.
Neither of the choices given are complete answers.
I did choose #2 because it was the closer to the truth of the two. I kind of wish I'd stuck to everyone else's guns.....oh well, I don't think I'm allowed to unvote.

I think unvoting is illegal here.

 

[yedida]

Cool. Somehow I've become unvoted!! I oculd've sworn that I voted for the second option but I'm not listed! Yea!!!

 

[visionary]

I believe the question is worded the way it is because it is being used in the upper echelons to state that we believe that we are saved by grace.. By not putting in the #3 option, she avoids the contentious part of our faith.. the evidence that we appreciate the grace given us to rise up and walk in faith..

 

[yedida]

The whole actual thing is that we are saved by the grace of God (not Yeshua) through faith in Yeshua's completed work, sacrifice/death and resurrection and is evidenced by good works and obedience to His commands. It's complicated and so very simple.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Wthout a resurrection the death wouldn't count for much....His death was but a part of a whole.

BTW, how has every little thing been with you lately?

I'm doing quite well. Thanks.

So, I guess that your and Avodat's position can be summed up in Paul's statement that "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17, NIV), right?

 

[mishkan]

which ONE are you saved by?

Which keeps us alive--air OR food?

This is what we mean by a false dichotomy.

Torah is a subset of grace. It is impossible to select one over the other.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Which keeps us alive--air OR food?

This is what we mean by a false dichotomy.

Torah is a subset of grace. It is impossible to select one over the other.

I think the question could be considered in a different sense if there were only two options. Rather than saying which one is a person saved by/kept alive by, it'd would be better to say "which one is superior and will lead to death without it quicker?"

You can go for a good bit without food, as others have in many cases..just as Christ fasted from food for 40 days/nights (Matthew 4). However, you can only go so long without air..as that's something you need more so in an immediate sense..and I've yet to see someone successfully fast from that one With that framework, I'd naturally say that the Wonderous Grace of Yeshua will always be superior to the astounding Beauty of Law that was meant to point us to Him who is the answer/enables us to pass the test....but both grace/law go together in our being transformed, just as food/water go together for our survival.

It's all a matter of process....and even Adam/Eve had this dynamic as well. For although they were made without blemish in the garden, they still had the reality of choice/walking in holiness as the Lord commanded--with their resistance in doing so costing them much.....and whereas many assume Adam/Eve were where all needed to be, others are of the persuasion that Adam and Eve were a "snapshot" of the process the Lord designed for mankind---with eternal life/partaking of the Tree of Life being the ultimate reward (also seen in Revelation 19-21 again at the end for those who complete the journey). When seeing how Yeshua is prefigured as the Tree of Life, alot of what's shared makes more sense. I think it's logical to be of the persuasion that Adam/Eve were in the same process of growth/development that all believers participate in when they come to trust in Christ for salvation....and then walk out the process of that salvation. On Adam and Eve being glorifed in process, one person you may like looking up is Michael Heiser. Brilliant theologian/scholar and one who has done alot of in-depth work when it comes to discussing the issue of man's gradual glorification that was interuppted (even though some of his views are a bit controversial for some)--and for more, one can go here:

• The Nachash (#$xfn@Fha) and His Seed

With salvation itself, just as with eating/breathing, it's a beautiful process rather than a One-Time experience (just as people don't eat or breathe for one instance in order to truly live). I've shared before how the Messianic Fellowship I go to has one aspect of it deeply connected to what has always occurred within Eastern Christianity/2000+ year old Judaic or Middle Eastern Christian spirit (as seen here /here or here in #1 , #3 and #221 for reference )....and what I've learned alongside other Jewish believers in experiencing the world of Eastern Christianity, specifically Orthodoxy (i.e. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc), is that they have one of the best views on the subject when it comes to the concept of salvation. In their minds, we are saved...we have been saved...and we will be saved. Salvation is seen as a process with multiple parts.

St. Paul said that, “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” ( 1 Corinthians 1:17-19/ 1 Corinthians 1 )

2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 (2 Corinthians 2 )

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And for another:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:13-15 /Hebrews 10
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As another in Orthodoxy said best by Dr. Alexander Roman:

Augustine’s doctrine on Original Sin was never formally “canonized” or officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church, even though it did tend to dominate Latin theology until recently. Some have commented that the roots of Augustine’s negative view on human nature are derived from his own great personal struggles with temptation in his own life (See Confessions). Augustine, however, did teach that Grace, the great Gift of God, was central to our lives and our salvation. Later Protestant Reformers took this view up but then deviated from it to the point that they jettisoned many ancient Christian traditions and truths. Even monasticism in their day was attacked since it smacked of “works” salvation. From the Orthodox Christian perspective, salvation is something that happened in the past, is now occurring and will be completed in future. It is a process whereby the Holy Trinity lives in us, renews our spirit through the Church and Her Mysteries and continues to nourish us in our prayer, meditation, spiritual exercises and liturgical life. Whatever good we do, we do under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit Who empowers us to do good works. God is so merciful that He wants His Divine Gifts to be our own. And until the day we repose, we are to pray to God that He “have mercy on me a sinner,” although God cleanses, transfigures and uplifts us toward Him through the Life, Death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Protestants and Roman Catholics today, however, have come to an agreement, at the level of theological reflection, that our justification and salvation occurs because of God’s Grace, which comes to us as an unmerited Gift to us. Faith and works, the agreement states, are the two aspects of our one response to God’s Salvation in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit

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For more information, one can go online/look up an article under the name of Orthodox Catholic Christianity » Are We Saved By "Faith Alone"?. And for others to check out:

• Salvation According to Coptic Orthodox Traditionx
• " An Eastern Orthodox Conception of Theosis and Human Nature" ().
• "Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature | Antiochian Orthodox " ( ).
• Road to Emmaus - SHINE AS THE SUN: C.S. Lewis and the Doctrine of Deification

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17, NIV), right?

Without the resurrection, the death would only go so far since the Holy Spirit's power (by which men are regenerated/sanctified) came upon all as a result of seeing what Yeshua did by rising again.

However, there's something to be said of how what Yeshua did in his death DID save us since it was by the shed blood that sin was atoned for. One part of his life (birth/living) qualified Him to be the spotless/perfect sacrifice that would enough to save all of man..and by His live He ensured He'd be a faithful/merciful High priest who truly could relate to the people he was called to serve ....and by His Blood He purchased/redeemed those He desired ( Revelation 5:8-10 /Revelation 5 ), with His resurrection giving them evidence/hope that what He did was truly legitimate and that He was Lord. Just like buying a car has multiple stages (i.e showing qualifications that one can even drive responsibly, signing the deed to recieve ownership of the car, driving the car, washing the car, filling it up with valuables, etc) and later stages don't change the fact that the the initial stages for owernship have been completed, so His ressurection occurring later for verification doesn't change the invaluable stage that His death/shed blood purchased our purity.

More discussed elsewhere in #150...but as it concerns the Blood of Christ giving salvation (as our salvation is progressive/in stages, Christ paid for our sins on the Cross ( John 6:52-54 , Acts 20:27-29 , Romans 3:24-26, Romans 5:8-10 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:19-21 , Hebrews 9:11-13 , Hebrews 9:24-26, Hebrews 13:11-13, 1 Peter 1:1-3, 1 John 1:6-8 , Revelation 1:4-6, Revelation 19:12-14 )---but it means NOTHING without the Resurrection aspect since that is what Gives us POWER to live righteously/be sanctified through the coming of the Holy Spirit.


With the resurrection, the Lord made clear that He would indeed raise His own body from the grave when the religious leaders of his day took issue with him. However, on the issue of John 2:19, what others often forget is the reality that Christ indeed raised His Body....and the MEANS/Methodology that He went about in accomplishing that was in His REVERENT submission to the Father/the Power of the Holy Spirit, who aided Him in doing so....and all of that went together as a type of showing how the Lord desired for his people to rise from the grave as well by the Power of the Spirit.

Acts 2:25-32
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
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27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
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29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
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The Biblical record seems to indicate that Jesus WAS helpless in his situation, and it was Father who righteously resurrected Him AND Glorified him....even though it was Christ who freely chose to lay down his life/yield Himself to Death ( John 10:16-18, John 12:26-28 )--and that resurrection ensured that what He proclaimed was truly real for ALL--and the Same spirit that rose Him from the grave is truly authentic/available for all who'd look solely to Him

Acts 3:14-16
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Acts 5:29-31
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Acts 10:39-41
but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

Acts 13:29-31
But God raised him from the dead,

Acts 13:33-35
32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.[a]'
The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'
36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

Romans 4:23-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
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Romans 6:3-5
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
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Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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Romans 8:1
11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
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Galatians 1:1-3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
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Ephesians 1
That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
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Colossians 2:11
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
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1 Peter 1:20-22
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
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1 Peter 3:17-19
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
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[MessianicMommy]

great answers

 

[Yahudim]

The whole actual thing is that we are saved by the grace of God (not Yeshua) through faith in Yeshua's completed work, sacrifice/death and resurrection and is evidenced by good works and obedience to His commands. It's complicated and so very simple.

This is an excellent explanation. Thank You Yedida! But you left out the part where Y'shua is the personification of the grace of the Father and how Y'shua is also the personification of Torah (the Word) so therefore Torah is the written manifestation of the grace of the Father. But I'll give you a pass on that one.

Speaking of the Resurrection of Messiah, I am reminded that just as He was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world (and all of the beautiful studies that show the great detail in which He prophetically fulfilled the part of the Pesach lamb, from entering His Fathers House to be examined by the priests four days prior to His sacrifice, all the way up to the point where He said 'It is finished', echoing the very words of the High Priest in the Temple as the last lamb was slain), that this is His first Appointed Time according to Leviticus 23. So how did He prophetically fulfill the Resurrection?

While pride is equated with being leavened or 'puffed up' in scripture, it reminds us that Y'shua 'humbled Himself even unto death' thereby fulfilling Hag HaMatzah, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, His second Appointed Time. Then there is His third Appointed Time, Yom HaBikkurim or the Day of First Fruits. It is prescribed to occur on the day after the weekly Sabbath during the Passover week in Leviticus 23, so it should come as no surprise that the Messianics quote the scriptures that state that He is the 'First Fruits' of the resurrection in one scripture and the 'First Fruits' of those that slept in another. Nor should it surprise us that our Christian brothers and sister believe He resurrected on the first day of the week, the day the Roman calendar described as Sunday, the day of worship of the sun god Mithras. This is after all, the day after the weekly Sabbath. So again, we are both right (except for Sabbath being on the day of the Sun and all that Mitras stuff).

My point in all of this is that our Messiah, Master, Brother and Friend was really into doing the written instruction called Torah in order that the grace of the Father might be manifested toward man in the manner of the Resurrection unto Salvation. And since Messiah instructed us to keep His commandments and to pick up our cross and follow Him, to me that means both 'Do as I say' and 'Do as I do'. Well, with Him being the Word (Torah) and all, I think you can see how the line between 'saved by grace' and 'saved by works' becomes real bblluurrrryy.

director: Standby camera one.
camera one: Standing by on one.
director: Cut to camera one and cue Phil.
director: Standby camera two.
"Well Jim, from here on the sidelines, I thought I saw him bobble the ball a little, but he sure got the job done. How did you see it?
director: Cue camera two to a split screen shot. We need a tight shot on both cameras. That's it.
"Thanks Phil and you were right, in paragraph one he maneuvered well, getting into the clear and the pass from Yedida was perfect."
"You sure are right there. That was no rookie move."
"But in paragraph two Phil, that may have been one of the longest parenthetical remarks I've seen in a while. All I could do was hold my breath."
"You are so right Jim..."
"Phil, I'm not sure he bobbled it. He just seemed to let it hang out there forever! But when he pulled it in and crossed the goal line, the crowd went wild."
"What's that Jim? I can barely hear you..."
"Thanks Phil. We are going to have to take a break. But we'll be back, right after these messages."
director: Aaaaaannnnd we're clear!