Who are they who are condemned already ?

[Brightfame52]

The verse says it all:
Jn 3: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed [ie, has NEVER believed] in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This verse separates between these believers who are sinful but not condemned, that is the sinful good seed and the sheep gone astray, from those who have never believed, ie, put their faith in Him, the goats and Satan and all his demonic angels.

Since we know that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning and therefore condemned from the beginning, this separation describes the Satanic fall which separated Satan et al who put their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god, never believing and so condemned already, from all the rest of creation who did not follow Satan but rather put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as the only salvation from sin...before some of them sinned and ended on earth to be redeemed but never condemned, saved by their faith as it were.

And yes, this does imply that faith was the condition for our election to salvation and that we were all there before the fall listening to the proclamation of the gospel that was proclaimed to every creature under heaven, Col 1:23, ie, every person created in HIS image.

They can only be unbelievers Christ didnt die for.

 

[TedT]

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The troublesome word is already, ie when did already happen? Since we know the ultimate disvalue of sin and that GOD cannot, will not, abide evil for any second longer than HE must, (Why the judgement was postponed is a great study...) this being condemned already MUST have happened the moment they chose to sin the unforgivable sin of blaspheming HIM as a liar and a false god, ie at the Satanic fall.

Either this implies that the whole of creation was condemned at this time or it implies that before their fall, some people did not choose to sin this unforgivable sin escaping inevitable condemnation as Jn 3:18 says, by belief, ie they chose to put their faith in HIM and the Son on or before the Satanic fall, ie already applies to them also!

Only after this declaration of faith that saved them from condemnation, did they rebel against HIS command, and, since the first command after the Satanic fall had to have been "Come out for among them in your hearts so they can be condemned," some of them must have rebelled choosing idolatry of their evil friends over HIS command. By becoming sinful themselves in this way, they forced the postponement of the judgement as the parable says: Matt 13:27...Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [implying the presence of the weeds in HIS garden was due to the devil, v38-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up? [bring the judgement upon them?] ’29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the plant and the only maturity that saves one from judgement is a mature faith. By sinning, they not only lost their free will but they lost their first faith, their faith which had already saved them from condemnation for their sin thus they had to be redeemed and sanctified on earth in the presence of their sinful friends who were condemned already, ready to accept GOD's condemnation of them as righteous, just and an absolutely necessity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not all unbelievers are condemned.

What do you mean by this?? Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They can only be unbelievers Christ didnt die for.

Show me any verse that says that Christ didn't die for everyone or that His death was ONLY for some.

Then I'll show you a handful of verses that plainly say He died for all, everyone.

 

[TedT]

Brightfame52 said: ↑
Not all unbelievers are condemned.

What do you mean by this?? Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say otherwise.

But I believe in two type of unbelievers: those who never believed and those believers who did put their faith in HIM and the Son but then sinned, losing their free will and their previous belief / faith.

That is, has any sinner been born on earth as a believer??? Or
are some non-believers elect, soon to become believers???

<sigh>

 

[Brightfame52]

What do you mean by this?? Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say otherwise.

I mean not all unbelievers are condemned. Some are reconciled to God by the Death of Christ Rom 5:10

 

[FreeGrace2]

Brightfame52 said: ↑
Not all unbelievers are condemned.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What do you mean by this?? Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say otherwise.

But I believe in two type of unbelievers: those who never believed and those believers who did put their faith in HIM and the Son but then sinned, losing their free will and their previous belief / faith.

Then you simply misunderstand what the 2 verses are saying.

By saying "have not believed" they mean "have NEVER believed".

What you are adding in is eisegesis. It's an opinion and the Bible does not teach that sinning means "loss of free will" or "loss of salvation."

There is only one type of unbeliever. Those who have not believed.

Once belief, no longer an unbeliever.

If a believer experiences trials, hardships, etc, such as the second soil of Luke 8:13, and cease to believe, they aren't "unbelievers" but apostates. That is different. By definition.

That is, has any sinner been born on earth as a believer???

Of course not. How could that happen?

Or
are some non-believers elect, soon to become believers???
<sigh>

Election is not about salvation, but about service.

Until a person believes in Christ for salvation, they are an unbeliever.

Once that person does believe in Christ for salvation, they are a believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What do you mean by this?? Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say otherwise.

I mean not all unbelievers are condemned. Some are reconciled to God by the Death of Christ Rom 5:10

The 2 verses SAY that "ALL are condemned who HAVE NOT BELIEVED."

Until a person does believe, they ARE condemned.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The troublesome word is already, ie when did already happen? Since we know the ultimate disvalue of sin and that GOD cannot, will not, abide evil for any second longer than HE must, (Why the judgement was postponed is a great study...) this being condemned already MUST have happened the moment they chose to sin the unforgivable sin of blaspheming HIM as a liar and a false god, ie at the Satanic fall.

Either this implies that the whole of creation was condemned at this time or it implies that before their fall, some people did not choose to sin this unforgivable sin escaping inevitable condemnation as Jn 3:18 says, by belief, ie they chose to put their faith in HIM and the Son on or before the Satanic fall, ie already applies to them also!

Only after this declaration of faith that saved them from condemnation, did they rebel against HIS command, and, since the first command after the Satanic fall had to have been "Come out for among them in your hearts so they can be condemned," some of them must have rebelled choosing idolatry of their evil friends over HIS command. By becoming sinful themselves in this way, they forced the postponement of the judgement as the parable says: Matt 13:27...Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [implying the presence of the weeds in HIS garden was due to the devil, v38-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up? [bring the judgement upon them?] ’29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the plant and the only maturity that saves one from judgement is a mature faith. By sinning, they not only lost their free will but they lost their first faith, their faith which had already saved them from condemnation for their sin thus they had to be redeemed and sanctified on earth in the presence of their sinful friends who were condemned already, ready to accept GOD's condemnation of them as righteous, just and an absolutely necessity.

Dear TedT,

You said:
The troublesome word is already, ie when did already happen? Since we know the ultimate disvalue of sin and that GOD cannot, will not, abide evil for any second longer than HE must, (Why the judgement was postponed is a great study...) this being condemned already MUST have happened the moment they chose to sin the unforgivable sin of blaspheming HIM as a liar and a false god, ie at the Satanic fall.

Your statements above are not supported by scripture. Scripture says that the soul that sins shall die (condemned). Since all mankind sins, all mankind is "already" condemned. Christ's death on the cross DID NOT pay that debt of death. Christ purchased that debt and we now owe "death" to Him. He is mankind's "near kinsman" redeemer. But from our death, Christ will give us a new birth. That new birth is "Christ in us". In other words, we become a new creature "in Christ". Christ is the only one who does not sin. He MUST live in us so that we are NOT condemned. This is a foundational truth of how we are saved. Water baptism is a symbol for it. When a person is immersed in water, it symbolizes our death that we owe. When the person rises from the water, it symbolizes our new birth in Christ. Water baptism is a symbol for what must happen spiritually to us in order to be saved. It is 100% the work of Christ.

Also, there is no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin". Here is the verse:

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.

"This age" is referring to the age of Law and the "age to come" is referring to the church age. So in other words, those who "speaketh against the Holy Spirit" will not be a "firstfruit" of Christ's harvest of mankind. But in the final age, all sin will be forgiven and all will be saved:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This scripture above very clearly says that "all" who died in Adam (those who are condemned already which is 100% of mankind), is the same "all" who will be made alive "in Christ". This can only happen at the end of the final age (the time of the great harvest, Feast of Tabernacles). The only exception is for those chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the firstfruits of Christ's harvest and they have the ends of the ages come upon them now, in this present age.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

You said:
The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the plant and the only maturity that saves one from judgement is a mature faith. By sinning, they not only lost their free will but they lost their first faith, their faith which had already saved them from condemnation for their sin thus they had to be redeemed and sanctified on earth in the presence of their sinful friends who were condemned already, ready to accept GOD's condemnation of them as righteous, just and an absolutely necessity.

None of what you said above is true. First of all, no man has "free will". Our "will" is controlled by God.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of God.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

In our utterly lost and carnally minded condition, NO ONE will seek the Lord, much less accept Christ as Lord. The only way this confession happens is for Christ to come to us (uninvited) and give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, no one can call Jesus Lord. We must be given the Spirit FIRST and because of that gift, we call Jesus Lord.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Also, mankind does not have the power to refuse that gift as you imagine. If we did, all mankind would refuse it - we are that lost! Paul's conversion experience is the pattern. I explained it in my previous post. You are thinking too highly of mankind's spiritual condition and the power of our "will":

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Secondly, without Judgment, no one can be saved. Judgment is a necessary part of our salvation. The Elect are judged first, in this present age. Then the rest of mankind will be judged in the final age. There are two purposes of judgment. One is the total destruction of our flawed spiritual condition which produced the Old Man and Man of Sin. Both must be destroyed. Secondly, judgment teaches us the righteousness of God so that we mature from a "babe" in Christ into a man.

This is what scripture teaches about WHO will be judged and WHY judgment is necessary:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Also, the word "fire" is a symbol for the judgment of Christ. It is NOT literal fire. Christ came to baptized mankind with both the Holy Spirit and with fire. Both are necessary for our salvation. The Old Man must die (fire) and the New Man in Christ (Holy Spirit) must be born.

All mankind is already condemned. Christ came to us so that we could live after paying that debt of death we all owe. This is conversion and it is 100% the work of Christ. He will not fail in this mission His Father sent Him to do. If He fails to save even one person, it would be a sin.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Joe

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your comments to another poster:

Your statements above are not supported by scripture.

Then you posted these:

Christ's death on the cross DID NOT pay that debt of death. Christ purchased that debt and we now owe "death" to Him. He is mankind's "near kinsman" redeemer. But from our death, Christ will give us a new birth.

The Bible says clearly that Christ's death DID pay that debt. And it's a debt of SIN, not a debt of DEATH, as you suppose. The RESULT of the sin debt is death. That's why Christ died on our behalf. That is HOW He paid the debt that we owed.

But now that He died in our place, there is NO MORE DEBT. Now God is free to offer salvation to mankind.

None of what you said above is true. First of all, no man has "free will". Our "will" is controlled by God.

There is nothing in the list of verses (6) that says that man cannot make a free choice.

Maybe you misunderstand what free will is. It is nothing but opportunity. An opportunity to make a free choice between available options (choices).

When the gospel is presented, that creates a choice. To believe or not to believe.

Also, mankind does not have the power to refuse that gift as you imagine. If we did, all mankind would refuse it - we are that lost!

The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It would be weird to offer a gift that cannot be refused. If any gift cannot be refused, then it isn't really a gift, but just a forced item on an unwilling person.

God does not operate that way.

Secondly, without Judgment, no one can be saved.

This is correct. And is why Christ was judged on our behalf.

Judgment is a necessary part of our salvation. The Elect are judged first, in this present age.

No, the judgment was on ALL of humanity when Jesus Christ died on the cross for the whole world. btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

God chooses for service, including Judas, per John 6:70,71. And Judas was never saved.

 

[TedT]

What you are adding in is eisegesis. It's an opinion and the Bible does not teach that sinning means "loss of free will" or "loss of salvation."

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion in a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions or a new interpretation that fits their real world view better.

The leading of the Holy Spirit is the only way to get exegesis, not study of the word or the documentaries where the truth you find will only be a reflection of yourself. This is how opposing groups can both claim to be exegetical about their favorite doctrine and their opponents eisegetical. The word farce comes to mind...

 

[TedT]

Your statements above are not supported by scripture.

I know they are not supported by YOUR interpretation of scripture, sigh.

 

[FaithWillDo]

In your comments to another poster:


Then you posted these:


The Bible says clearly that Christ's death DID pay that debt. And it's a debt of SIN, not a debt of DEATH, as you suppose. The RESULT of the sin debt is death. That's why Christ died on our behalf. That is HOW He paid the debt that we owed.

But now that He died in our place, there is NO MORE DEBT. Now God is free to offer salvation to mankind.


There is nothing in the list of verses (6) that says that man cannot make a free choice.

Maybe you misunderstand what free will is. It is nothing but opportunity. An opportunity to make a free choice between available options (choices).

When the gospel is presented, that creates a choice. To believe or not to believe.


The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It would be weird to offer a gift that cannot be refused. If any gift cannot be refused, then it isn't really a gift, but just a forced item on an unwilling person.

God does not operate that way.

This is correct. And is why Christ was judged on our behalf.


No, the judgment was on ALL of humanity when Jesus Christ died on the cross for the whole world. btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

God chooses for service, including Judas, per John 6:70,71. And Judas was never saved.

Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
The Bible says clearly that Christ's death DID pay that debt. And it's a debt of SIN, not a debt of DEATH, as you suppose. The RESULT of the sin debt is death. That's why Christ died on our behalf. That is HOW He paid the debt that we owed.

But now that He died in our place, there is NO MORE DEBT. Now God is free to offer salvation to mankind.

Where are your scriptures? There are none. Christ did not die so that we would not have to die. Christ died to purchase our debt to sin which is DEATH and to earn the keys to death and hell so that we could be resurrected from DEATH. We must be "born again" and for our new birth to occur, our old spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition must die. This is not a complex principle to understand. This is what water baptism symbolizes and what Christ meant when He said this:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since Christ's “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the Old Man) by the Word of God.

Consider these verses:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The vessel God made us into from birth was "marred" so He made us into another vessel. He did not ask our permission when He made us flawed nor does He ask our permission when He makes us into a new vessel.

Back to SWORDS:

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

"Fire" is the spiritual symbol for judgment and the Sword is the spiritual symbol for the Word of God. With the Word of God, Christ will slay "many" (all of mankind). But from this death, we will also be "born again".

Another verse:

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

"Trees" are symbols for mankind after they have been "called out". Since all mankind sins and cannot bring forth "good fruit", we will all be "hewn down" and destroyed by judgment. Again...our Old Man must die so that we can be born again.

Peter said this:

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Our "corruptible seed" is destroyed by the Sword (Word of God) and from this destruction, we are born again with an incorruptible seed and this also happens by the Word of God just as Mat 26:52 states.

I could go on and on with more verses but if you don't believe these verses that I have presented to you, you won't believe any others.

You said:
There is nothing in the list of verses (6) that says that man cannot make a free choice.

Maybe you misunderstand what free will is. It is nothing but opportunity. An opportunity to make a free choice between available options (choices).

When the gospel is presented, that creates a choice. To believe or not to believe.

The verses I presented all say that mankind does not have a free will. "Opportunity" is NOT free will. We all have a "will" and can make choices BUT the choices we make are CAUSED by God. Opportunity has nothing to do with it.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

How could God say it more clearly. Christ prepares our hearts by giving us free gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit. Once we have those gifts, the ONLY "choice" we can make is to accept Him as Lord. Here is this verse again:

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Read it carefully. Once we are given the Holy Spirit, we cannot call Jesus accused any longer. Our only "choice" is to call Him Lord.

And scripture says that "all flesh" will receive the Spirit:

Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

God pours out His Spirit on ALL flesh. We do not have to ask for Him to do this work. He does it because of His Grace. The Holy Spirit is a free gift that is GIVEN to all mankind.

You said:
The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It would be weird to offer a gift that cannot be refused. If any gift cannot be refused, then it isn't really a gift, but just a forced item on an unwilling person.

God does not operate that way.

This is correct. And is why Christ was judged on our behalf.

Here is the proper translation of that verse:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that brings salvation to all people.

I'm not sure where you found any translation that says "offers". It is not in the original text.

And just as I have been saying, Christ BRINGS salvation to "all people". We do not ask Him to bring it. If we did, our carnally minded condition would never ask and no one would be saved.

Why do you say that if a gift cannot be refused, it is no longer a gift??? There is no scriptural support for that understanding.

You said:
No, the judgment was on ALL of humanity when Jesus Christ died on the cross for the whole world. btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

God chooses for service, including Judas, per John 6:70,71. And Judas was never saved.

In this present age, only the ELECT will be saved. They are chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the firstfruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. They are the only ones to whom Christ appears with the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. No amount of "free will" choices will change His election. It has already been decided. If a person has not been chosen, then they will have to wait on Christ to do His work within them in the final age when the full harvest of mankind occurs. We cannot save ourselves or even contribute to it. If we believe we can, then we are committing the "sin that leads to death" and have "fallen away". We cannot be saved by our own works.

Where does your definition of "election" come from? Election is what God calls His choice on who will be saved as a Firstfruits in this present age. They will be His witnesses but they will be rejected by this world and by those of their own households (Called out believers) just as Christ was rejected.

Joe

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not true, people He died for cant be condemned as unbelievers !

Of course they can. Just because He died for everyone’s sin doesn’t mean He has to forgive everyone’s sin. He paid the price so that He could make the choice of who He will forgive and who He will not forgive. The scriptures specifically state several times that Christ died for all. He is the propitiation for our sins, not only ours but the whole world.

 

[renniks]

Not true, people He died for cant be condemned as unbelievers !

That would mean everyone will be saved. Because Jesus said he would draw all to himself.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I know they are not supported by YOUR interpretation of scripture, sigh.

Dear TedT,
The verses I presented are straight forward and easy to understand. You are trying to shape them to fit your world view of God which is not correct. You should let the scriptures tell you what to believe and not the other way around.
Joe

 

[BNR32FAN]

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death even when they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10!

Thats not what Paul said. Your adding to what he said.

“For if while we (believers) were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul didn’t say anything about Christ dying only for believers. Those who remain in Christ have already been written in the book of life since creation according to God’s foreknowledge.

Notice what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:11-13

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that Paul writes to Timothy telling him that if “we”, either Paul or Timothy, ensure they will reign with Him BUT if they deny Him He will deny them. So their salvation hinges upon their actions

 

[FreeGrace2]

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion in a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions or a new interpretation that fits their real world view better.

The leading of the Holy Spirit is the only way to get exegesis, not study of the word or the documentaries where the truth you find will only be a reflection of yourself. This is how opposing groups can both claim to be exegetical about their favorite doctrine and their opponents eisegetical. The word farce comes to mind...

If that were true, then let's just all go home and do what we want.

It is quite possible to understand the meaning of a verse without input from oneself. But those with agendas and preconceived ideas, etc, it's rather difficult.

I agree with what you say about the Holy Spirit. But probably everyone says they are guided by the Holy Spirit. So you're still at square one.

The key is to be in fellowship with the Spirit, which is unfortunately not being taught in the vast majority of churches. It seems most assume that if they read their Bible, the Holy Spirit is right there helping them understand, even though they probably have unconfessed sins (I John 1:9), which quenches the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

When the Spirit is grieved (Eph 4:30) or quenched, He is not assisting the believer.

 

[TedT]

Dear TedT,
The verses I presented are straight forward and easy to understand. You are trying to shape them to fit your world view of God which is not correct. You should let the scriptures tell you what to believe and not the other way around.
Joe

Well Joe,

how about: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

We must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about as they are two different things. For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus. This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12 where Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not... to the five foolish virgins. He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them. Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD knowing about Jeremiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible sums it up well:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; implying a personal relationship with not knowledge about as per:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Obviously He knew all about them but He did not have a personal relationship with them as GOD suggests HE had with Jeremiah.

Since I believe that GOD knows about this difference then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me that Jeremiah existed before his conception. If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the womb, that is, before he was created?

But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience. Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the Jews knew about GOD's omniscience long before his time. Well, anything but his pre-conception existence eh!!!

Let me ask you this. In your opinion, just what would GOD have to say to Jeremiah to reveal that he existed before he was made in the womb? What would HE have to say so that Jeremiah could put it in the Book in such a way that it would not give away any secrets for 2600 years?

So, is all this eisegesis or exegesis, hmmm?

 

[TedT]

If that were true, then let's just all go home and do what we want.

You couldn't do better than to do exactly that: Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. A life spent in loving service is not wasted! Unless one has a calling to combat blasphemy, much of this bickering is about fleshly boredom and ego, not the Holy Spirit.