Who are the two witnesses?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Those that are alive are caught up. Those that Jesus raised from the dead died twice. Paul raised Eutychus from the dead. He would have died twice.
As I stated God is not bound to die once. There is no need to send one back to earth so they can die once.

From MORTAL to IMMORTAL. I never said anything regarding dying twice, I said once as the scripture plainly says. In revelation the two witnesses clearly die (Revelation 11). 1 Corinthians 15:36-53. Read Revelation 20:6-14 there is a second death. There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth. There is a physical death and a possible spiritual death...or eternal life...

You say they all died twice...any scriptures to prove your point? So far you have not posted any...

 

[Randy777]

From MORTAL to IMMORTAL. I never said anything regarding dying twice, I said once as the scripture plainly says. In revelation the two witnesses clearly die (Revelation 11). 1 Corinthians 15:36-53. Read Revelation 20:6-14 there is a second death. There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth. There is a physical death and a possible spiritual death...or eternal life...

You say they all died twice...any scriptures to prove your point? So far you have not posted any...

I know they died twice. Those that were raised back to life in the NT were not changed to immortal bodies. We do know they would have died again as they were mortal. That's my point. God is not bound to die once. So He won't be sending back Enoch or Elijah so they can die once. Those caught up alive on the last day and clothed with immortality on the last day don't die once. God is not bound to making sure all die once. Who were you referring to when you said at some point they would have to die?

You said=>Hebrews 9:27...yes, so at some point they would have to die...some say Moses and Elijah, since they were present at His Transfiguration...to represent the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I know they died twice. Those that were raised back to life in the NT were not changed to immortal bodies. We do know they would have died again as they were mortal. That's my point. God is not bound to die once. So He won't be sending back Enoch or Elijah so they can die once. Those caught up alive on the last day and clothed with immortality on the last day don't die once. God is not bound to making sure all die once. Who were you referring to when you said at some point they would have to die?

You said=>Hebrews 9:27...yes, so at some point they would have to die...some say Moses and Elijah, since they were present at His Transfiguration...to represent the Law and the Prophets.

Again, you provide no scriptures or evidence, just your opinion. You say God is not bound so how do you know they died again? I said that IF Elijah and Enoch or whoever are the 2 witnesses, they will DIE (Revelation 11).

 

[Randy777]

Again, you provide no scriptures or evidence, just your opinion. You say God is not bound so how do you know they died again? I said that IF Elijah and Enoch or whoever are the 2 witnesses, they will DIE (Revelation 11).

Its not my opinion. Their mortal bodies were raised. They would die a 2nd time. You didn't state if.
ArmyMatt wrote=>most common I hear are Enoch and Elijah since they are the only two people in Scripture that didn't die.
You replied=>Hebrews 9:27...yes, so at some point they would have to die...some say Moses and Elijah, since they were present at His Transfiguration...to represent the Law and the Prophets.

My whole point was that God is not bound to Hebrews 9:27. So God doesn't have to send back Elijah and Enoch to die because of what Hebrews 9:27 states. Hence examples of people who by Gods action that would die twice and those on the last day that are caught up alive who don't die even once.

End of discussion.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Its not my opinion. Their mortal bodies were raised. They would die a 2nd time. You didn't state if.
ArmyMatt wrote=>most common I hear are Enoch and Elijah since they are the only two people in Scripture that didn't die.
You replied=>Hebrews 9:27...yes, so at some point they would have to die...some say Moses and Elijah, since they were present at His Transfiguration...to represent the Law and the Prophets.

My whole point was that God is not bound to Hebrews 9:27. So God doesn't have to send back Elijah and Enoch to die because of what Hebrews 9:27 states. Hence examples of people who by Gods action that would die twice and those on the last day that are caught up alive who don't die even once.

End of discussion.

Of course I didn't say IF, I didn't need to because we were talking about who the 2 witnesses would be...the 2 witnesses DIE in Revelation 11. Yes it IS your personal opinion. You have provided no evidence. They are not caught up alive (mortal meaning they can die), they are changed to immortal just like those raised. Who says those who resurrected at His resurrection were not also changed to immortality?? We simply do not know and neither do you.

 

[Randy777]

Of course I didn't say IF, I didn't need to because we were talking about who the 2 witnesses would be...the 2 witnesses DIE in Revelation 11. Yes it IS your personal opinion. You have provided no evidence. They are not caught up alive (mortal meaning they can die), they are changed to immortal just like those raised. Who says those who resurrected at His resurrection were not also changed to immortality?? We simply do not know and neither do you.

You previous post you stated=>I said that IF Elijah and Enoch or whoever are the 2 witnesses, they will DIE


Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

From scripture those who are alive are caught up and clothed with immortality. There is no mention of the word death.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.
Lazarus was raised mortal.
Jarious's daughter was raised mortal.

Those at the resurrection that Jesus spoke of will be raised with new bodies that don't die.

Death entered the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. After that point in history God stated man was mortal. Man is subject to die once and then face judgment. God is not bound to that and does all He is pleased to do.

We know mortal bodies die. Lazarus and Jarious's daughter therefore died a 2nd time.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You previous post you stated=>I said that IF Elijah and Enoch or whoever are the 2 witnesses, they will DIE


Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

From scripture those who are alive are caught up and clothed with immortality. There is no mention of the word death.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.
Lazarus was raised mortal.
Jarious's daughter was raised mortal.

Can you not read??! I plainly said the 2 witnesses, whoever they are, WILL DIE as it plainly says in Revelation 11. Again in response to your opinion, you have provided no scriptural proof...

 

[Randy777]

Can you not read??! I plainly said the 2 witnesses, whoever they are, WILL DIE as it plainly says in Revelation 11. Again in response to your opinion, you have provided no scriptural proof...

Those on the last day that are alive are caught up and clothed with immortality per scripture. I have not added nor taken away from that. If you want to add that they die first I don't agree.
If you want to think Lazarus and Jairus's daughter didn't die again I don't agree with you as mortal bodies die. Its been almost 2000 years.

I agree the two witnesses in Rev 11 will be killed by the beast. I don't agree that Enoch and Elijah will be sent back to earth because they haven't died once. As God isn't bound to that.

 

[Randy777]

If John the Baptist born as man came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah then the two witness can also be chosen from man and come in the power of the Spirit. It was not Moses nor Elijah it was by God's Spirit and by Gods power.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I agree the two witnesses in Rev 11 will be killed by the beast.

Finally!

 

[Randy777]

Finally!

I have always believed that. What I don't hold to is that Enoch and Elijah will have be sent back so at some point they would die once. Mortal man is subject to death as he is mortal unless God intervenes as He did with Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have always believed that. What I don't hold to is that Enoch and Elijah will have be sent back so at some point they would die once. Mortal man is subject to death as he is mortal unless God intervenes as He did with Enoch and Elijah.

IF...IF...Elijah and/or Enoch are the two witnesses, then they DO die per Revelation 11. Whoever they will be they WILL die...

 

[Randy777]

IF...IF...Elijah and/or Enoch are the two witnesses, then they DO die per Revelation 11. Whoever they will be they WILL die...

The two witnesses will be in bodies of the dust of the earth. They will be killed by the beast. Their bodies will lay dead in the street for 3-1/2 days as the world takes joy. Those who take joy in their killing will fall to the lies of the beast.

Elijah when on the mountain top discussing with the Lord His impending departure appeared to be in a body in the order of Spirit. I don't believe God is going to send them back to die to follow some rule He isn't bound to nor do I believe God is going to recreate a human body for them to die in.

But if by some odd miracle it is them they will be killed and raised to life again.

 

[Andrei D]

This is NOT a snarky comment, please forgive me, it's a real curious question: is there a reason why I should worry about this?

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is NOT a snarky comment, please forgive me, it's a real curious question: is there a reason why I should worry about this?

worry about what, if I may ask?

 

[Andrei D]

All of this discussion - I am wondering if there's any implication for faith or practice or reality in general. I know a lot of my non-Orthodox friends "live and breathe" the Apokalypsis, but I grew up with a "soft" discouragement... not necessarily to not read it but not dwell on it. And, honestly, I know so little. I don't know if it's a Romanian thing or a broader thing. As always, I'm like this and never know what is tradition and what is Tradition so to say. So I don't know if I'm missing something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

All of this discussion - I am wondering if there's any implication for faith or practice or reality in general. I know a lot of my non-Orthodox friends "live and breathe" the Apokalypsis, but I grew up with a "soft" discouragement... not necessarily to not read it but not dwell on it. And, honestly, I know so little. I don't know if it's a Romanian thing or a broader thing. As always, I'm like this and never know what is tradition and what is Tradition so to say. So I don't know if I'm missing something.

I think the thing is to prepare and pray (not to worry), so that when it comes however it happens, you'll be ready.

 

[Phronema]

All of this discussion - I am wondering if there's any implication for faith or practice or reality in general. I know a lot of my non-Orthodox friends "live and breathe" the Apokalypsis, but I grew up with a "soft" discouragement... not necessarily to not read it but not dwell on it. And, honestly, I know so little. I don't know if it's a Romanian thing or a broader thing. As always, I'm like this and never know what is tradition and what is Tradition so to say. So I don't know if I'm missing something.

That's how I've learned as well. That is to not dwell on it, and I'm in a Greek church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's how I've learned as well. That is to not dwell on it, and I'm in a Greek church.

yep, because if you do dwell on it, and it doesn't turn out the way you planned, it's easier to be deceived.

 

[Phronema]

yep, because if you do dwell on it, and it doesn't turn out the way you planned, it's easier to be deceived.

That's a very good point. I'd not thought of it that way.