Who are the "Evangelicals"?
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TheyCallMeDave
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Few points.....
1. Evangelical as it pertains to Churches means a commitment to The Gospel of Christ by faith alone based on christ alone by Gods grace alone / the Great Commission to spread this Good News / The Bible being the ultimate authority for the Believers Life / and adherence to all of the historic Christian Faiths doctrines . Essentially, this is what the word signifies.
2. The word 'Catholic' means universal .
3. This is different than the ROMAN Catholic Church . This is a seperate Religion which has many differences to Evangelicalism doctrinally.
4. Ive never heard of an 'Evangelical Roman Catholic Church' because it would require such a CHurch to be distant from the Pope since Evangelicals (THe Bible) believes CHrist is still in charge of the CHristian CHurch today and a Man residing in the Vatican, is not. Further, the term is a total oxymoron based on RCC Canons which flat out deny what the Bible says on how to be saved, how we are redeemed, and the totally finished work of Christ on the cross to obtain our salvation ... plus others.
5. Here is an online book which categorically lists 37 of the RCC's major doctrines as compared to the Bible : http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp .The differences are stark and cannot be infused in any way.
6. Jesus while on earth, was a clear Evangelical .. in fact our first Evangelical . He put down the kind of legalism found in the RCC today because it focuses on ritual keeping , traditions, rule keeping, instead of a real dynamic personal relationship with Christ and God. Jesus would be appauled to partake in a Eucharist REAL sacrifice at a RCC because his salvation work was completed 2000 years ago by the only sacrifice that carries any merit . He would probably whip the upper Leaders of the RCC for making people think that he (Jesus) could be put in a wafer then ingested as his REAL Body. I believe Jesus would sit outside the Vatican day and night teaching the real and only Gospel that saves and which is based, solely, on his life, death, and ressurection period without any extraneous things added as a requirement. These are but a few of the reasons why Protestants / Evangelicals find the RCC offensive , because they make claims to be Christian, yet deny essential Christian Doctrine on salvation, redemption, sufficiency of Christs atonement , et al.... Further, Protestants have not forgotton the many Martyrs at the hands of the RCC Popes who were burned alive at the Inquisitions for failure to call the Pope The Leader of the Christian Church and equal in authority to THe BIble itself. Nor has the RCC ever apologized for the brutality inflicted on these BIble upholding real Christians.
While Evangelicals and RC's can do humanitarian works together such as anti abortion peaceful demonstrations...it is quite impossible to mold the two together into One faith. Although in RCC Ecumanism, this is precisely the goal....to get Protestants into their Fold. Many have defected gullably, but those who love and treat the Bible with great respect and authority , will never share its authority on the same par as The Majesteriom of the RCC (which its teaching maintains) .
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ViaCrucis
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Here is how I would present an overview of Protestantism and its history, including here Anglicanism and the English Reformation:
I would argue that one can categorize four church traditions--or "schools" or "branches" if one prefers--that arose out of the Reformation Period:
Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and Anglican.
The English Reformation (Anglicanism) has a history quite distinct from the Continental Reformation (Lutheranism, Reformed, and Anabaptist), on mainland Europe the call was to reform from Luther, and others. In England, Henry VIII chose to make a clean break from Rome and establish the English Church as independent. However, Henry was also very hostile to the Protestants and as such those with Lutheran or Reformed dispositions were initially a persecuted minority under the independent Church of England.
In the years following Henry's death, there was a massive back-and-forth between Catholic and Protestant (Reformed) factions, which from what I understand lasted until Elizabeth I. Anglicanism, generally, found its identity as Via Media, the Middle Way. As such one can find distinctively Protestant expressions and distinctively Catholic expressions in the Anglican Communion.
In Europe, Lutheranism retained its distinctive identity through its confessional texts: The Book of Concord. A theological controversy within Lutheranism, however, came about with the rise of Pietism. Pietism rejected elements of orthodox Lutheranism and sought an expression of Christian faith and life through personal piety.
The Reformed Tradition, following theologians such as John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Knox produced several historic church traditions. The Reformed Tradition also, in the 17th century, saw a theological controversy when Jacob Arminius and those like-minded with him challenged or re-evaluated certain Calvinist-Reformed doctrines. This resulted in the Synod of Dordt, which rejected Arminianism in favor of what has been called TULIP, the five points of classic Calvinism (these five points were drawn up specifically to counter Arminius' five points).
The Reformed-Calvinist tradition includes Presbyterians (John Knox), and the various Reformed Churches (John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli).
The Moravian Brethren, a Pietist group, would ultimately influence a young Anglican priest, John Wesley. Wesley, having a personal spiritual awakening would come to, more-or-less embrace the Arminianism that was rejected by the Reformed churches at Dordt. The fruit of Wesley's ministry was the rise of a distinctive church body--the Methodists.
During the Reformation period itself the Anabaptists included many different groups, many of which have not survived. Some were radical, apocalyptic cults. However the mainstream of the Anabaptists--the Mennonites, the Amish, etc--were believers in active non-violent conduct.
In the 17th and 18th century, England saw a rise of various non-conformist and dissenting groups. Most well known, perhaps, are the Puritans. Puritans were strict Calvinists who saw the Church of England as retaining too much "Romanism", thus they desired to purify the English Church. Others included the earliest Baptists, the Quakers, and a number of other groups.
Non-conformist and dissenting English groups, having no welcome in their English homeland, found refuge in Britain's American colonies, and as such many of them settled the colonies in America. With them there was also, under the preaching of John Wesley and others, a religious revival which gave Methodism a strong foothold on American soil.
The significant Protestant groups in colonial America included the Congregationalists, Reformed/Presbyterians, Baptists, and Anglicans.
After the American War for Independence, Anglicans in the U.S. called themselves Episcopalian, so as to distance themselves from the obvious English identity.
In the United States, there would be several periods of religious zeal that would produce new Protestant groups:
In the wake of the Second Great Awakening, there were many who felt the time was ripe for Christ to return. This would produce a sharp apocalyptic fever among many. Further, with all the varied Christian denominations and groups all abounding everywhere (a circumstance somewhat unique to the new nation since it formally granted religious freedom to all citizens and put up a wall of separation between Church and State) some believed the situation had become all too chaotic. There were moves toward primitivism--getting back to how Christianity "originally" was. The Stone-Campbell Movement was such, a desire to simply be called "Christian" without the extra "baggage". The Stone-Campbell Movement would go on to produce several denominations, such as the Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ.
It was within this climate that Joseph Smith, Jr. claimed to have been visited by an angel, found the golden tablets, and began the Latter-Day Saint movement, of which the LDS church (Mormons) are the most prominent. Smith claimed he was told all the current churches were false and apostate, and it was his job to restore the True Church which had since vanished from the earth.
In the early 19th century, with apocalyptic fever still high, many were rattling their minds to predict when Christ might return. One such individual, William Miller, predicted Christ's return in 1844. These Millerites, as they were called, would largely disband (including Miller himself) after two failed predictions. However, not all Millerites ceased, and gave rise to the Adventist Movement. The most prominent denomination to come out of Adventism are the Seventh Day Adventists, founded by proclaimed prophetess, Ellen G. White. Adventism would also eventually influence Charles T. Russel, who founded a Bible Society, and under the later leadership of J. F. Rutherford would become known as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
In this same climate, on the other side of the Atlantic, a rogue Irish priest named John Nelson Darby helped found the Plymouth Brethren. One of the distinctive teachings of Darby and the Brethren is what would be called Dispensationalism. According to Darby and his followers, there would be future time of tribulation, however just prior to this Jesus would return to rapture Christians away to escape the tribulation on earth. Dispensationalism was matured under others, including the two who spread it to the U.S.: Cyrus Scofield (who produced the Scofield Study Bible which became a highly influential study Bible in America) and Dwight L. Moody who founded the Moody Bible Institute. Thus Dispensationalism spread outside of its Plymouth Brethren origins and came to be adopted by many who studied in Dispensationalist seminaries like Moody's and were educated and taught from Scofield's Study Bible. Other American seminaries would arise as schools of Dispensationalist thought, most chiefly Dallas Theological Seminary.
In the 19th century there also arose an intense missionary zeal, and so many churches began, in earnest, sending missionaries to far off places, chiefly Africa and Asia. Taking with them, of course, their distinct theologies.
During the course of the 19th century, there were a number of revivals, especially on the American frontier. These frontier revivals produced a new religious zeal, and would produce some of the earliest pietistic forms of proto-Evangelicalism. A significant player in these events was a rogue Reformed clergyman named Charles Finney. Finney, in his evangelistic meetings, began using what became ultimately known as the "altar call", where one was invited to walk up the aisle and give themselves to Jesus. This idea ultimately became entrenched in American Revivalism and Pietism, and as such was forerunner in the later American Evangelicalism of the 20th century.
In this revival atmosphere, from outside of the broadly Wesleyan tradition was a strong push toward personal piety and holiness, this Pietism gave birth to the Holiness Movement and the Holiness Churches. The denomination I'm most familiar with to have arose out of the Holiness Movement is the Church of the Nazarene, though there are several groups that call themselves "Church of God" that come from the Holiness background as well.
It is within this Holiness tradition that, around 1906, at the Azusa Street Mission Pentecostalism traces its roots. A revival broke out in that year and spread, and the result was the formation of several Pentecostal groups, including the Assemblies of God.
In continental Europe, in the 19th century, the Enlightenment had produced a generation of scholars and theologians that began to discredit and doubt the Protestant orthodoxy that had arisen in the 16th century. This "German Liberalism" as it is called, would find its supporters and detractors, as well as reactionaries. As it made inroads into America, a sharp reaction was produced in the publication of a multi-volume work known as "The Fundamentals" effectively trying to articulate basic Protestant Christianity. This produced the Fundamentalists, who increasingly over the next several decades become more hostile to what they saw as a morally bankrupt society, contributing to the situation with the Scopes "Monkey" Trial and playing a role in American Prohibition.
By the 1930's and 40's many were uncomfortable with Fundamentalism's seeming hostility to the surrounding and dominant culture, and this gave birth to modern Evangelicalism, or "Neo-Evangelicalism".
The opulence of the 20's gave rise to the Great Depression of the 30's, and following victory after World War II a massive economic boom occurred in America. This feel good time would eventually be interrupted by such diabolical forces such as Rock'n'Roll. Then the Counter-Culture of the 1960's with sexual liberation--many Fundamentalists saw this as the horrendous destruction of American decency, a moral bankruptsy. Fundamentalist leaders such as Jerry Falwell, would go on to create the Moral Majority, and the Religious Right was born.
During the Counter-Culture of the 60's and early 70's there arose a uniquely Christian element. The Jesus Movement produced a generation of Christian hippies, Evangelical hippies. Jesus Freaks. The Jesus Movement began to die down in the early 80's, but its mark was solidly left on Evangelicalism, there was now a uniquely Evangelical Christian sub-culture in America. In the 1980's and '90's a tremendous growth of a Christian industry in music, gifts, novelties, Christian stores to sell these and more. And exported it around the world.
I'm certain I could keep going, but I think this is a fairly sufficient snapshot of some of the history here. It may be a lot to digest, for that I apologize.
-CryptoLutheran
I would argue that one can categorize four church traditions--or "schools" or "branches" if one prefers--that arose out of the Reformation Period:
Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and Anglican.
The English Reformation (Anglicanism) has a history quite distinct from the Continental Reformation (Lutheranism, Reformed, and Anabaptist), on mainland Europe the call was to reform from Luther, and others. In England, Henry VIII chose to make a clean break from Rome and establish the English Church as independent. However, Henry was also very hostile to the Protestants and as such those with Lutheran or Reformed dispositions were initially a persecuted minority under the independent Church of England.
In the years following Henry's death, there was a massive back-and-forth between Catholic and Protestant (Reformed) factions, which from what I understand lasted until Elizabeth I. Anglicanism, generally, found its identity as Via Media, the Middle Way. As such one can find distinctively Protestant expressions and distinctively Catholic expressions in the Anglican Communion.
In Europe, Lutheranism retained its distinctive identity through its confessional texts: The Book of Concord. A theological controversy within Lutheranism, however, came about with the rise of Pietism. Pietism rejected elements of orthodox Lutheranism and sought an expression of Christian faith and life through personal piety.
The Reformed Tradition, following theologians such as John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Knox produced several historic church traditions. The Reformed Tradition also, in the 17th century, saw a theological controversy when Jacob Arminius and those like-minded with him challenged or re-evaluated certain Calvinist-Reformed doctrines. This resulted in the Synod of Dordt, which rejected Arminianism in favor of what has been called TULIP, the five points of classic Calvinism (these five points were drawn up specifically to counter Arminius' five points).
The Reformed-Calvinist tradition includes Presbyterians (John Knox), and the various Reformed Churches (John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli).
The Moravian Brethren, a Pietist group, would ultimately influence a young Anglican priest, John Wesley. Wesley, having a personal spiritual awakening would come to, more-or-less embrace the Arminianism that was rejected by the Reformed churches at Dordt. The fruit of Wesley's ministry was the rise of a distinctive church body--the Methodists.
During the Reformation period itself the Anabaptists included many different groups, many of which have not survived. Some were radical, apocalyptic cults. However the mainstream of the Anabaptists--the Mennonites, the Amish, etc--were believers in active non-violent conduct.
In the 17th and 18th century, England saw a rise of various non-conformist and dissenting groups. Most well known, perhaps, are the Puritans. Puritans were strict Calvinists who saw the Church of England as retaining too much "Romanism", thus they desired to purify the English Church. Others included the earliest Baptists, the Quakers, and a number of other groups.
Non-conformist and dissenting English groups, having no welcome in their English homeland, found refuge in Britain's American colonies, and as such many of them settled the colonies in America. With them there was also, under the preaching of John Wesley and others, a religious revival which gave Methodism a strong foothold on American soil.
The significant Protestant groups in colonial America included the Congregationalists, Reformed/Presbyterians, Baptists, and Anglicans.
After the American War for Independence, Anglicans in the U.S. called themselves Episcopalian, so as to distance themselves from the obvious English identity.
In the United States, there would be several periods of religious zeal that would produce new Protestant groups:
In the wake of the Second Great Awakening, there were many who felt the time was ripe for Christ to return. This would produce a sharp apocalyptic fever among many. Further, with all the varied Christian denominations and groups all abounding everywhere (a circumstance somewhat unique to the new nation since it formally granted religious freedom to all citizens and put up a wall of separation between Church and State) some believed the situation had become all too chaotic. There were moves toward primitivism--getting back to how Christianity "originally" was. The Stone-Campbell Movement was such, a desire to simply be called "Christian" without the extra "baggage". The Stone-Campbell Movement would go on to produce several denominations, such as the Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ.
It was within this climate that Joseph Smith, Jr. claimed to have been visited by an angel, found the golden tablets, and began the Latter-Day Saint movement, of which the LDS church (Mormons) are the most prominent. Smith claimed he was told all the current churches were false and apostate, and it was his job to restore the True Church which had since vanished from the earth.
In the early 19th century, with apocalyptic fever still high, many were rattling their minds to predict when Christ might return. One such individual, William Miller, predicted Christ's return in 1844. These Millerites, as they were called, would largely disband (including Miller himself) after two failed predictions. However, not all Millerites ceased, and gave rise to the Adventist Movement. The most prominent denomination to come out of Adventism are the Seventh Day Adventists, founded by proclaimed prophetess, Ellen G. White. Adventism would also eventually influence Charles T. Russel, who founded a Bible Society, and under the later leadership of J. F. Rutherford would become known as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
In this same climate, on the other side of the Atlantic, a rogue Irish priest named John Nelson Darby helped found the Plymouth Brethren. One of the distinctive teachings of Darby and the Brethren is what would be called Dispensationalism. According to Darby and his followers, there would be future time of tribulation, however just prior to this Jesus would return to rapture Christians away to escape the tribulation on earth. Dispensationalism was matured under others, including the two who spread it to the U.S.: Cyrus Scofield (who produced the Scofield Study Bible which became a highly influential study Bible in America) and Dwight L. Moody who founded the Moody Bible Institute. Thus Dispensationalism spread outside of its Plymouth Brethren origins and came to be adopted by many who studied in Dispensationalist seminaries like Moody's and were educated and taught from Scofield's Study Bible. Other American seminaries would arise as schools of Dispensationalist thought, most chiefly Dallas Theological Seminary.
In the 19th century there also arose an intense missionary zeal, and so many churches began, in earnest, sending missionaries to far off places, chiefly Africa and Asia. Taking with them, of course, their distinct theologies.
During the course of the 19th century, there were a number of revivals, especially on the American frontier. These frontier revivals produced a new religious zeal, and would produce some of the earliest pietistic forms of proto-Evangelicalism. A significant player in these events was a rogue Reformed clergyman named Charles Finney. Finney, in his evangelistic meetings, began using what became ultimately known as the "altar call", where one was invited to walk up the aisle and give themselves to Jesus. This idea ultimately became entrenched in American Revivalism and Pietism, and as such was forerunner in the later American Evangelicalism of the 20th century.
In this revival atmosphere, from outside of the broadly Wesleyan tradition was a strong push toward personal piety and holiness, this Pietism gave birth to the Holiness Movement and the Holiness Churches. The denomination I'm most familiar with to have arose out of the Holiness Movement is the Church of the Nazarene, though there are several groups that call themselves "Church of God" that come from the Holiness background as well.
It is within this Holiness tradition that, around 1906, at the Azusa Street Mission Pentecostalism traces its roots. A revival broke out in that year and spread, and the result was the formation of several Pentecostal groups, including the Assemblies of God.
In continental Europe, in the 19th century, the Enlightenment had produced a generation of scholars and theologians that began to discredit and doubt the Protestant orthodoxy that had arisen in the 16th century. This "German Liberalism" as it is called, would find its supporters and detractors, as well as reactionaries. As it made inroads into America, a sharp reaction was produced in the publication of a multi-volume work known as "The Fundamentals" effectively trying to articulate basic Protestant Christianity. This produced the Fundamentalists, who increasingly over the next several decades become more hostile to what they saw as a morally bankrupt society, contributing to the situation with the Scopes "Monkey" Trial and playing a role in American Prohibition.
By the 1930's and 40's many were uncomfortable with Fundamentalism's seeming hostility to the surrounding and dominant culture, and this gave birth to modern Evangelicalism, or "Neo-Evangelicalism".
The opulence of the 20's gave rise to the Great Depression of the 30's, and following victory after World War II a massive economic boom occurred in America. This feel good time would eventually be interrupted by such diabolical forces such as Rock'n'Roll. Then the Counter-Culture of the 1960's with sexual liberation--many Fundamentalists saw this as the horrendous destruction of American decency, a moral bankruptsy. Fundamentalist leaders such as Jerry Falwell, would go on to create the Moral Majority, and the Religious Right was born.
During the Counter-Culture of the 60's and early 70's there arose a uniquely Christian element. The Jesus Movement produced a generation of Christian hippies, Evangelical hippies. Jesus Freaks. The Jesus Movement began to die down in the early 80's, but its mark was solidly left on Evangelicalism, there was now a uniquely Evangelical Christian sub-culture in America. In the 1980's and '90's a tremendous growth of a Christian industry in music, gifts, novelties, Christian stores to sell these and more. And exported it around the world.
I'm certain I could keep going, but I think this is a fairly sufficient snapshot of some of the history here. It may be a lot to digest, for that I apologize.
-CryptoLutheran
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I think you have forgotten something in your history. You begin with the Reformation; however, there was the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. Perhaps, it's safe to say that no one really knows what Jesus Christ taught, and all claim to know what Jesus Christ taught, because the assumption is that Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, so if someone claims to hold the true knowledge of Jesus, then that someone holds power and dominance over others.
Wouldn't it be better to reject Christianity and organized religion altogether and become a friendly, kind, respectful, considerate, and overall moral atheist who meets with other atheists for society, community, friendships, and fellowships, giving the rise of secular humanism?
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I read before in an online how-to guide (I believe it was ehow or Wiki How-To), and it described how to become a Catholic Christian. In order for a Catholic wannabe to enter the Roman Catholic Church, he or she may want to do research on the faith, so he or she has some basic idea of what is going on. Then, he or she should make an appointment with a catechist and take a course called a catechumenate, as a catechumen. Otherwise, the catechumen is not considered a Christian by the Roman Catholic Church, especially if the catechumen has been baptized in a Protestant church. Then, I think the catechumen must be confirmed by a priest in order to be a part of the greater Christian community. Catholics, as I read on Wikipedia, only regard themselves, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Oriental Orthodox Christians, Assyrian Church of the East, and a few others who maintain apostolic succession and observe the seven sacraments, both of which are denied by Protestant churches, to be true Christians. If St. Peter really were the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church, then the Roman Catholic Church would be closer to what original twelve apostles had wanted for a church, right? And all the other branches of Christianity would be considered apostates and heretics, right?
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This isn't entirely true. Catholics consider Protestants to be Christian. They just don't recognize Protestant churches as true churches. So they think of Protestants as separated brethren, Christians who need to connect with the true Church in order to be complete.
Of course not recognizing other churches is considered by most of us to be one of the major marks of a dangerous "cult." Those of us who are more charitable tend to spare Catholics that judgement. We understand that their history tends to induce blindness in certain areas.
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ViaCrucis
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Churches which recognize Baptism as a corporate, sacramental thing recognize any baptism valid that is done in the orthodox manner: Namely in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the past, different formulas were recognized by dispensation; however today it's generally regarded that the use of a different formula (e.g. "Jesus Name only") is intentionally heterodox, and thus considered invalid.
What this means is fairly straight forward. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, and many others recognize Baptism as Baptism, thus whether baptized in any of these, or in a Baptist church or "non-denominational" or whatever, it's still Baptism.
I was baptized at the age of 17 in my Pentecostal church, that Baptism is true and valid Baptism. I'm Lutheran now, but if I became Catholic or Anglican or etc, my Baptism is not suspect since it was done in the Christian manner. I wasn't baptized a Pentecostal, I was baptized a Christian.
In some churches--those that reject infant baptism--if one is baptized was baptized as an infant then they would be expected to be baptized again (Baptists, most Evangelical churches, and the various "non-denominational" churches). However most would still recognize my baptism since it took place when I was older; though they wouldn't see my Baptism the way I do. Indeed, in the church I was baptized, they didn't see it the way I do. The theology of the church I attended was that Baptism is a symbol of one's commitment to Jesus, not an efficacious, sacramental union with the Body of Christ that remits sin and seals me with the righteousness and promises of God.
Most Christians don't view Baptism as a sort of club membership, most of us believe Baptism is the instituted and normative means by which God brings us into the household of faith, that is, it makes us Christians, born again, new creatures. As a Lutheran I believe Baptism, in fact, imparts and creates faith; faith is extra nos, from outside ourselves, a gift given by God as pure grace.
Because of that, Baptism is valid and it sticks, regardless of where we are or who we are. Since it's God's thing, God doing the work, it is radically apart from ourselves; accomplishing something we can't do for ourselves--and God's promises to us, and His seal upon us, pressed and stamped upon us in the waters of Baptism is indelible, it cannot be nullified. Once baptized always baptized.
-CryptoLutheran
What this means is fairly straight forward. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, and many others recognize Baptism as Baptism, thus whether baptized in any of these, or in a Baptist church or "non-denominational" or whatever, it's still Baptism.
I was baptized at the age of 17 in my Pentecostal church, that Baptism is true and valid Baptism. I'm Lutheran now, but if I became Catholic or Anglican or etc, my Baptism is not suspect since it was done in the Christian manner. I wasn't baptized a Pentecostal, I was baptized a Christian.
In some churches--those that reject infant baptism--if one is baptized was baptized as an infant then they would be expected to be baptized again (Baptists, most Evangelical churches, and the various "non-denominational" churches). However most would still recognize my baptism since it took place when I was older; though they wouldn't see my Baptism the way I do. Indeed, in the church I was baptized, they didn't see it the way I do. The theology of the church I attended was that Baptism is a symbol of one's commitment to Jesus, not an efficacious, sacramental union with the Body of Christ that remits sin and seals me with the righteousness and promises of God.
Most Christians don't view Baptism as a sort of club membership, most of us believe Baptism is the instituted and normative means by which God brings us into the household of faith, that is, it makes us Christians, born again, new creatures. As a Lutheran I believe Baptism, in fact, imparts and creates faith; faith is extra nos, from outside ourselves, a gift given by God as pure grace.
Because of that, Baptism is valid and it sticks, regardless of where we are or who we are. Since it's God's thing, God doing the work, it is radically apart from ourselves; accomplishing something we can't do for ourselves--and God's promises to us, and His seal upon us, pressed and stamped upon us in the waters of Baptism is indelible, it cannot be nullified. Once baptized always baptized.
-CryptoLutheran
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I'm speaking of the church today. Catholics, Protestants and atheists have all done terrible things.
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