Who are the Jews and Gentiles?

[GospelS]

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29

By that definition, should we not argue that we are the real Jews, inwardly, rather than arguing that we are gentiles (when someone so wishes to do so)?

So why don't we identify ourselves by God's standards? Which do you think is better to say, "I'm a gentile, i don't follow that", OR "I'm a Jew, inwardly, i follow by the Spirit". Why not we acknowledge the authority of the Holy Spirit that enlightened us as much as we acknowledge the religion of Christianity?

And what is my concern exactly. Well, it grieves my spirit when people of God argue with each other regarding such matters that create more harm than good. Debate is good. When I grieve, i think the Holy Spirit in me also grieves and so My Father is also grieved looking at all this, which i cannot keep calm about.

I keep asking God- Father, why do your children argue in such manner regarding things that doesn't matter much? Is there any thing i can do to inspire and encourage them to love more, be more kindful, in harmony, humility and grace towards each other? Maybe this is my mission in midst of all the arguments. I hope and pray that God will help me see you all loving each other MORE THAN you all argue with each other.

 

[Albion]

One of the most important characteristics of the religion Christ founded, however, is the idea that although God did have a chosen people, the Hebrews, and his revelation up until that time had been to them...

...ALL men and women, Jews or Gentiles, wealthy or poor, slave or free were henceforth included in the promises made by God to Mankind and the redemptive work of his Son.

 

[dqhall]

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29

By that definition, should we not argue that we are the real Jews, inwardly, rather than arguing that we are gentiles (when someone so wishes to do so)?

So why don't we identify ourselves by God's standards? Which do you think is better to say, "I'm a gentile, i don't follow that", OR "I'm a Jew, inwardly, i follow by the Spirit". Why not we acknowledge the authority of the Holy Spirit that enlightened us as much as we acknowledge the religion of Christianity?

And what is my concern exactly. Well, it grieves my spirit when people of God argue with each other regarding such matters that create more harm than good. Debate is good. When I grieve, i think the Holy Spirit in me also grieves and so My Father is also grieved looking at all this, which i cannot keep calm about.

I keep asking God- Father, why do your children argue in such manner regarding things that doesn't matter much? Is there any thing i can do to inspire and encourage them to love more, be more kindful, in harmony, humility and grace towards each other? Maybe this is my mission in midst of all the arguments. I hope and pray that God will help me see you all loving each other MORE THAN you all argue with each other.

You may be a Gentile Christian and oppose murder. You do not need to convert to Judaism to oppose murder. Buddha lived before Christ was born in Israel and opposed murder. The Hindus do not even believe in killing animals.

Israel decided if your mother was Jewish, you are Jewish. If you converted to Judaism you may be examined by a religious authority about your doctrine to determine if you are Jewish. Israel does not consider Christianity
to be Jewish. Christians have been arrested for preaching the Gospel in Israel. A Jewish man was fired from his job after his employer learned he was Christian. A man and his wife were evicted from a Golan Heights Jewish settlement after they refused to reject Christianity. They immigrated to America.

 

[GospelS]

You may be a Gentile Christian and oppose murder. You do not need to convert to Judaism to oppose murder. Buddha lived before Christ was born in Israel and opposed murder. The Hindus do not even believe in killing animals.

Israel decided if your mother was Jewish, you are Jewish. If you converted to Judaism you may be examined by a religious authority about your doctrine to determine if you are Jewish. Israel does not consider Christianity
to be Jewish. Christians have been arrested for preaching the Gospel in Israel. A Jewish man was fired from his job after his employer learned he was Christian. A man and his wife were evicted from a Golan Heights Jewish settlement after they refused to reject Christianity. They immigrated to America.

Ok. Thanks for sharing. I do not understand how that is related to God's Israel.
God's Israel is different and we belong to that.

 

[dqhall]

they

Ok. Thanks for sharing. I do not understand how that is related to God's Israel.
God's Israel is different and we belong to that.

Israel is a people and Israel is a nation you can not immigrate to unless you are Jewish.

Paul met with members of the Jewish community in Rome. They rejected his message, so he turned to the Gentiles - those of other nations:

Acts 28:21 (WEB) They said to him, “We neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor did any of the brothers come here and report or speak any evil of you. 22 But we desire to hear from you what you think. For, as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”

23 When they had appointed him a day, many people came to him at his lodging. He explained to them, testifying about God’s Kingdom, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and from the prophets, from morning until evening. 24 Some believed the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 When they didn’t agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had spoken one word, “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say,
in hearing, you will hear,
but will in no way understand.
In seeing, you will see,
but will in no way perceive.
27 For this people’s heart has grown callous.
Their ears are dull of hearing.
Their eyes they have closed.
Lest they should see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their heart,
and would turn again,
then I would heal them.’Isaiah 6:9-10

28 “Be it known therefore to you, that the salvation of God is sent to the nations, and they will listen.”

29 When he had said these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.

30 Paul stayed two whole years in his own rented house and received all who were coming to him, 31 preaching God’s Kingdom, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness, without hindrance.

 

[GospelS]

they

Israel is a people and Israel is a nation you can not immigrate to unless you are Jewish.

Paul met with members of the Jewish community in Rome. They rejected his message, so he turned to the Gentiles - those of other nations:

Acts 28:21 (WEB) They said to him, “We neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor did any of the brothers come here and report or speak any evil of you. 22 But we desire to hear from you what you think. For, as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”

23 When they had appointed him a day, many people came to him at his lodging. He explained to them, testifying about God’s Kingdom, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and from the prophets, from morning until evening. 24 Some believed the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 When they didn’t agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had spoken one word, “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say,
in hearing, you will hear,
but will in no way understand.
In seeing, you will see,
but will in no way perceive.
27 For this people’s heart has grown callous.
Their ears are dull of hearing.
Their eyes they have closed.
Lest they should see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their heart,
and would turn again,
then I would heal them.’Isaiah 6:9-10

28 “Be it known therefore to you, that the salvation of God is sent to the nations, and they will listen.”

29 When he had said these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.

30 Paul stayed two whole years in his own rented house and received all who were coming to him, 31 preaching God’s Kingdom, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness, without hindrance.

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate.

 

[ViaCrucis]

One difficulty is that when most of the New Testament was still being written there was not as of yet a very clear distinction between Judaism and Christianity. Christianity was, effectively, still something of a movement within Judaism.

In the first century there wasn't a single "Judaism", while the most populous expression of Judaism was Pharisaism, there were also the Sadducees. In addition to these two, there were still others. For example, there were the Essenes, many historians and scholars believe that the Jewish community which lived at Qumran and who were responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls may have been Essenes--but it's not entirely conclusive. Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher from the time, mentions another group known as the Therapeutae, who lived in Egypt, a group of Jewish ascetics (monks more-or-less) who may (possibly a strong may) have been influenced by Buddhism.

It is in this complex religious environment that Christianity shows up. A messianic movement proclaiming Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, the Christ.

But this movement didn't restrict itself to only Jews, but called Gentiles to come and be part of it. This is one thing which made Christianity very different; it did not make a distinction between Jew and Gentile, but saw its mission as being fully and completely universal--for everybody. And so St. Paul speaks of Gentile converts as branches grafted onto the tree that is Israel. Israel and the Church are one mystical organism, a people of faith that belong to God.

St. Paul looks to before Moses, to Abraham, and it is is with Abraham that he sees the promise of the Seed and of being a father of many nations being fulfilled in Christ. Who unites Jew and Gentile into one new man; and thus Israel becomes bigger than just Jews or Judaism, it is the entire people of faith who are brought into the new life of Jesus, God's Messiah.

As such it's not that non-believing Jews aren't Jews or aren't Israel; which is why the Apostle looks forward to, hoping, in the day when "all Israel will be saved".

The [non-believing] Jews are still Jews, Israel, on account of the covenant, the promises, the acts of God in history. These truths haven't been revoked. And while they are, as Paul sees it, natural branches cut off from the root, that doesn't make them worthless or outside of God's reach, which is why Paul reminds his Gentile readers not to become arrogant, for if natural branches could be pruned away then certainly foreign branches which have been grafted could also be pruned away. What matters is the root, the trunk, the source. "I am the True Vine and you are the branches" Jesus says.

Are non-believing Jews still Israel? The answer is yes.
Are believing Jews and believing Gentiles Israel? The answer is yes.

But in different senses, perhaps. The non-believing Jews are Israel for the sake of the fathers, the covenant, the promises; we who are in Christ are Israel on account of the fulfillment of all those promises: Jesus Christ.

So it would be in error to say Jews are not Jews, or that Jews are not Israel; how can one be both Israel and not Israel (that is, in the Church)? I suspect that this is one of those unanswered and paradoxical questions that we often find ourselves with when studying Scripture. But we must remember that God has not abandoned the Jewish people, God does not turn away from His word, He does not go back on His promises.

A great deal of evil has stemmed from antisemitism in the past, often by the hands of those who are Christians. This is a horrible and horrendous evil of history (and, sadly, still an evil present today). This makes wrestling with complex questions like this important, and not something to be dismissed.

The Church must always remember that she is the Church that lives in a world in which Auschwitz could and horrifyingly did happen.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GospelS]

One difficulty is that when most of the New Testament was still being written there was not as of yet a very clear distinction between Judaism and Christianity. Christianity was, effectively, still something of a movement within Judaism.

In the first century there wasn't a single "Judaism", while the most populous expression of Judaism was Pharisaism, there were also the Sadducees. In addition to these two, there were still others. For example, there were the Essenes, many historians and scholars believe that the Jewish community which lived at Qumran and who were responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls may have been Essenes--but it's not entirely conclusive. Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher from the time, mentions another group known as the Therapeutae, who lived in Egypt, a group of Jewish ascetics (monks more-or-less) who may (possibly a strong may) have been influenced by Buddhism.

It is in this complex religious environment that Christianity shows up. A messianic movement proclaiming Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, the Christ.

But this movement didn't restrict itself to only Jews, but called Gentiles to come and be part of it. This is one thing which made Christianity very different; it did not make a distinction between Jew and Gentile, but saw its mission as being fully and completely universal--for everybody. And so St. Paul speaks of Gentile converts as branches grafted onto the tree that is Israel. Israel and the Church are one mystical organism, a people of faith that belong to God.

St. Paul looks to before Moses, to Abraham, and it is is with Abraham that he sees the promise of the Seed and of being a father of many nations being fulfilled in Christ. Who unites Jew and Gentile into one new man; and thus Israel becomes bigger than just Jews or Judaism, it is the entire people of faith who are brought into the new life of Jesus, God's Messiah.

As such it's not that non-believing Jews aren't Jews or aren't Israel; which is why the Apostle looks forward to, hoping, in the day when "all Israel will be saved".

The [non-believing] Jews are still Jews, Israel, on account of the covenant, the promises, the acts of God in history. These truths haven't been revoked. And while they are, as Paul sees it, natural branches cut off from the root, that doesn't make them worthless or outside of God's reach, which is why Paul reminds his Gentile readers not to become arrogant, for if natural branches could be pruned away then certainly foreign branches which have been grafted could also be pruned away. What matters is the root, the trunk, the source. "I am the True Vine and you are the branches" Jesus says.

Are non-believing Jews still Israel? The answer is yes.
Are believing Jews and believing Gentiles Israel? The answer is yes.

But in different senses, perhaps. The non-believing Jews are Israel for the sake of the fathers, the covenant, the promises; we who are in Christ are Israel on account of the fulfillment of all those promises: Jesus Christ.

So it would be in error to say Jews are not Jews, or that Jews are not Israel; how can one be both Israel and not Israel (that is, in the Church)? I suspect that this is one of those unanswered and paradoxical questions that we often find ourselves with when studying Scripture. But we must remember that God has not abandoned the Jewish people, God does not turn away from His word, He does not go back on His promises.

A great deal of evil has stemmed from antisemitism in the past, often by the hands of those who are Christians. This is a horrible and horrendous evil of history (and, sadly, still an evil present today). This makes wrestling with complex questions like this important, and not something to be dismissed.

The Church must always remember that she is the Church that lives in a world in which Auschwitz could and horrifyingly did happen.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for sharing.

I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Romans 11:14-15

 

[Sketcher]

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29

By that definition, should we not argue that we are the real Jews, inwardly, rather than arguing that we are gentiles (when someone so wishes to do so)?

So why don't we identify ourselves by God's standards? Which do you think is better to say, "I'm a gentile, i don't follow that", OR "I'm a Jew, inwardly, i follow by the Spirit". Why not we acknowledge the authority of the Holy Spirit that enlightened us as much as we acknowledge the religion of Christianity?

Paul didn't define all Christians as "inward Jews." Romans 2:28-29 was part of his overall setup to point to faith in Jesus Christ as what saves the Jew and the Gentile alike in later chapters. Are Gentiles grafted in? Yes. Does that mean we are obligated to follow the Law like the Jews? Absolutely not, see Acts 15 and the entire book of Galatians.

 

[GospelS]

Paul didn't define all Christians as "inward Jews." Romans 2:28-29 was part of his overall setup to point to faith in Jesus Christ as what saves the Jew and the Gentile alike in later chapters. Are Gentiles grafted in? Yes. Does that mean we are obligated to follow the Law like the Jews? Absolutely not, see Acts 15 and the entire book of Galatians.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[coffee4u]

Unless a person is a Jew, either by blood from their mother or by conversion, they are a Gentile. Gentiles can be of any faith or none. I don't think we normally think in terms of Jew or Gentile much anymore, or I don't. But if we are being technical, then all of us here unless we are Jewish, are Gentiles. We may be Christian Gentiles, but we are still Gentiles.

 

[HARK!]

Unless a person is a Jew, either by blood from their mother

Are you going by Jewish tradition, how YHWH, defines bloodline, or both?

It's my scriptural understanding that heritage is passed through the father.

 

[coffee4u]

Are you going by Jewish tradition, how YHWH, defines bloodline, or both?

It's my scriptural understanding that heritage is passed through the father.

I thought that is how they do it, read it before, heard it before. I haven't studied it.

"Jewish communities have practised matrilineal descent from at least early Tannaitic (c. 10-70 CE) times to Modern times." Matrilineality in Judaism - Wikipedia
Doesn't bother me one way or the other.

 

[Joy]

Mod Hat On

Some Posts and Responses
have been Removed
in
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Mod Hat Off​

 

[HARK!]

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 2:28-29

By that definition, should we not argue that we are the real Jews, inwardly, rather than arguing that we are gentiles (when someone so wishes to do so)?

You have a good point!

 

[HARK!]

Gentile Christian

This strikes me as an oxymoron. If gentiles are of the nations or of the world; and Christians are in Messiah who gathers the lost sheep of Israel; how can one be of the world and of messiah? We are to die to the world; and be reborn in Messiah.

 

[HARK!]

Are Gentiles grafted in? Yes. Does that mean we are obligated to follow the Law like the Jews? Absolutely not, see Acts 15 and the entire book of Galatians.

This passage puts the fear of YHWH in me every time I read it.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

What do you suppose it means?

 

[dqhall]

This strikes me as an oxymoron. If gentiles are of the nations or of the world; and Christians are in Messiah who gathers the lost sheep of Israel; how can one be of the world and of messiah? We are to die to the world; and be reborn in Messiah.

If Gentiles are of the world, then Jews are of the world, for they live in this world too. God gathered the lost sheep of Israel. God has other sheep too, these sheep are not called Israel.

John 10:16 KJV “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

One may get instructions from heaven. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Matthew 6:10

The law taught you should not murder. In this verse the law is good. The law also taught you should stone people who work on Saturday. There is threat of merciless death in this other verse of the law. Jesus taught if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek. Jesus taught people to love their enemies.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

[HARK!]

John 10:16 KJV “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[HARK!]

One may get instructions from heaven. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Matthew 6:10

YHWH outlined his will in the Torah. Yahshua came to show us how it's done.