Who applied the Church to Israel..chapter & verse please. Part 3.

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eph3Nine

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xenia said:
Ok, Eph. I think I'm done here. It's ok to bat around philosophies of scriptural interpretation but to say others who don't hold your convoluted system might not even be saved- we have nothing more to say to each other.

I am showing a great deal on personal constraint in not saying more.

Over and out.

Again, I went to great lengths to show you that I didnt write that particular portion of scripture, nor did I place it in OUR apostles instructions to we the Church, which is His body, for today.

Paul is the one who says, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that those who dont SEE the gospel given to him by God, to those whom THIS gospel is HID, the possibility lies that they are indeed lost. I didnt say it...God did. I think its a grand gesture by God to cause folks to actually EXAMINE what it is they DO believe....as there surely IS another gospel and another jesus being preached today.

We arent saved by that gospel, OR that jesus. Its really that simple.
 
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Tractor1

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eph3Nine said:
We will be judged by what we BELIEVED , not how we "ACTED".

Really? The neccessity of walking by the Holy Spirit is especially apparent in view of the high standard of spiritual life demanded of Christians in the Scriptures. The standards which are applicable to the present dispensation are found throughout the New Testament, especially in the Epistles you've stated are given for our benefit. Their examination will demonstrate they are attainable only by walking in Him. We're to love one another as Christ loves us (John 13:34; 15:12), every thought must be brought to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor. 10:5), and we're to be longsuffering toward all, along with following after that which is good (1 Thess. 5:14-15). We will be judged according to our deeds (2 Cor. 5:10).

Regarding my calling, I've never before felt compelled to address another's behavior in this forum, but recently that's changed. Christians do have a responsibility towards their brothers and sisters in Christ to restore those who are behaving wrong in a spirit of gentleness (Gal. 6:1). The need of the power of the Spirit in the life of every Christian is one of the great realities of both revelation and experience in this dispensation. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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eph3Nine

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Tractor1 said:
Really? The neccessity of walking by the Holy Spirit is especially apparent in view of the high standard of spiritual life demanded of Christians in the Scriptures. The standards which are applicable to the present dispensation are found throughout the New Testament, especially in the Epistles you've stated are given for our benefit. Their examination will demonstrate they are attainable only by walking in Him. We're to love one another as Christ loves us (John 13:34; 15:12), every thought must be brought to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor. 10:5), and we're to be longsuffering toward all, along with following after that which is good (1 Thess. 5:14-15). We will be judged according to our deeds (2 Cor. 5:10).

Those deeds are the ones we find in Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We cant even take credit for the good works we DO...because God ordained them before we were even saved. The only works rewarded are those done while walking IN the Spirit.

Regarding my calling, I've never before felt compelled to address another's behavior in this forum, but recently that's changed. Christians do have a responsibility towards their brothers and sisters in Christ to restore those who are behaving wrong in a spirit of gentleness (Gal. 6:1). The need of the power of the Spirit in the life of every Christian is one of the great realities of both revelation and experience in this dispensation. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."

In Christ,
Tracey

Yep...and you are responsible for YOUR behavior and the motives from which that behavior springs and vice versa. I think many of us have differing views of what is LOVING. To allow others to continually bad mouth Gods PLAN for today as if there are NO consequences for believing another gospel is NOT LOVE. Its actually cowardice and a wanting a "good reputation amongst men" rather than wanting the truth to prevail.

Those who arent on the front lines fail to see this however, and set themselves up to be the "nice" police....not realizing that being nice is NOT the criteria for , nor to take the place of, the TRUTH. Many LOST people are very sweet and nice...but when you begin sharing truth, you will be accused of being everything but white. No offense to any of color here.

HIS performance is always the key...NOT policing our performance or that of others. If we are rightly dividing the Word, those issues take care of themselves. Thats not to say right dividers never get in the flesh or do and say things wrongly....however, the MESSAGE is the focal point...NOT the messenger. Satan and his little helpers always change the focus to the messenger and thus further OBSCURE the message.

We, in our human ness think that if we are just 'NICER', God will be more pleased than if we get his message clearly presented to others. Our thinking is messed up. Jesus was God and they accused him of being all kinds of things...and when he overturned the moneychangers tables and called the religious folks of his day "snakes" and "white washed sepulchres", I dont think He was being particularly "NICE"....LOL.

The truth by its very nature IS offensive. Religious folk simply dont WANT IT.:sigh:
 
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Tractor1

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eph3Nine said:
Those deeds are the ones we find in Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We cant even take credit for the good works we DO...because God ordained them before we were even saved. The only works rewarded are those done while walking IN the Spirit.



Yep...and you are responsible for YOUR behavior and the motives from which that behavior springs and vice versa. I think many of us have differing views of what is LOVING. To allow others to continually bad mouth Gods PLAN for today as if there are NO consequences for believing another gospel is NOT LOVE. Its actually cowardice and a wanting a "good reputation amongst men" rather than wanting the truth to prevail.

Those who arent on the front lines fail to see this however, and set themselves up to be the "nice" police....not realizing that being nice is NOT the criteria for , nor to take the place of, the TRUTH. Many LOST people are very sweet and nice...but when you begin sharing truth, you will be accused of being everything but white. No offense to any of color here.

HIS performance is always the key...NOT policing our performance or that of others. If we are rightly dividing the Word, those issues take care of themselves. Thats not to say right dividers never get in the flesh or do and say things wrongly....however, the MESSAGE is the focal point...NOT the messenger. Satan and his little helpers always change the focus to the messenger and thus further OBSCURE the message.

We, in our human ness think that if we are just 'NICER', God will be more pleased than if we get his message clearly presented to others. Our thinking is messed up. Jesus was God and they accused him of being all kinds of things...and when he overturned the moneychangers tables and called the religious folks of his day "snakes" and "white washed sepulchres", I dont think He was being particularly "NICE"....LOL.

The truth by its very nature IS offensive. Religious folk simply dont WANT IT.:sigh:
Fair enough. But, agree or not, the merit of the message you wish to impart will be filtered through the fruit displayed.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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eph3Nine

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Tractor1 said:
Fair enough. But, agree or not, the merit of the message you wish to impart will be filtered through the fruit displayed.

In Christ,
Tracey

Our job is NOT to inspect one anothers fruit, but to LISTEN TO, and ACKNOWLEDGE and BELIEVE the message. No one is going to get any rewards for inspecting fruit...LOL.

Think about it. Either Gods word is true, or its NOT! My personality, your personality, whether or not I LIKE YOU< or you like me will not be called into question. And lets face it...human nature will use ANY Excuse to get OUT FROM UNDER clear instruction from God...even something as silly as "well, I just didnt like the way so and so SAID it, so I didnt listen"...LOL...now that will be a funny one to watch when we find out it simply isnt a valid excuse for ANYTHING.

Truth is truth even if it comes from scabby, foul tempered , politically INcorrect, and socially UNacceptable individuals. The MESSAGE is the issue...NOT the messenger. We ARE imperfect beings and will always be able to find fault with others...the issue is, HE has a plan and purpose...are we cooperating with Him IN IT?

Thats what we will all be judged on.:thumbsup:
 
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eph3Nine

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John Whalen also posted the same thing in another post:

Take a look
Christians are called to judge other Christians(not unbelievers), when they do not speak according to sound doctrine. The "sweet Spirit" of the Lord Jesus Christ is sometimes communicated in harsh words.You confuse tolerance for people with tolerance for false doctrine, using the "religious pluralism" agrument that is prevalent in this society-"you are so mean spirited, intolerant, judgmental, 'unchristian'……………….." Tolerance is how we treat people, rationality is how we treat ideas. "All mushrooms are not good".We examine doctrine, discerning spiritual ideas just as we are to discern good mushrooms from bad, and even more so, given the eternal consequences..

So, you see, what we think of each other is not in question here...it IS the message that is to be the focus...and human beings, when they have no ammunition to attack the message, usually go after the messenger.

Satan is using every ploy in his arsenal to keep this message obscured. Most professing believers are cooperating with HIM in HIS plan of evil, and NOT with God in his plan and purpose for today. So, you see, its really worse than you thot!
 
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Hedgehog

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The Great Tribulation is centered on earth, it's focus being apostate Israel and the unbelieving nations, not the Body of Christ,

I can maybe explain better(with scripture) later when I have more time, but I believe the "tribulation" took place/ was what was happening with the Hebrew people of the OT. all the untruth, them not knowing the glory of God, was spiritual, not earthly(works).
The Bible does say Satan prefers the things of men ( earth)... and that is how he decieved all those people back then. Made them believe it was earthly things ( temples ,sacrificing etc) that got them salvation.

SO- under that premise, yes, Id say you are right.... the tribulation DID have to do with apostate Israel.... it could only "touch" those who were believing in a FALSE system.
and it was centered on "EARTHLY" things. All things of Earth are idolatry/images/FALSE.
Gods glory is spiritual.
The Body/Church/assembly/congregation/true Israel...... had/has no part in it.
We know that true circumcision/baptism etc is spiritual, not an earthly work.
 
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Hedgehog

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Our job is NOT to inspect one anothers fruit, but to LISTEN TO, and ACKNOWLEDGE and BELIEVE the message. No one is going to get any rewards for inspecting fruit...LOL.

But you have to consider like Paul, for example... how he became whatever he needed to win men over.
He circumsized Timothy ( was it Timothy?) even though physical circumsicion had nothing to do with anything.. was of no use at all..... he did it because , why not? if it was going to make the Jewish people "listen" better..... then hey, why not.

If one truly loves people/mankind... and cares about their salvation, then you will want to present your messege in a way that they will listen to..... kindness and friendliness and love is a good start.

I always wonder why people are bothering to debate doctrine when they dont even have the simple things, the foundation , "love" down yet.
 
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KEPLER

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Dave Taylor said:
Notice how when the Dispensational view drops by to discuss the scriptures presented, it must bring loads and loads of its own interpretational commentary with it, and even with the verses that does give, must filter all of them down by providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted.

Dispensationalism simply cannot stand when the Word of God alone is used to answer questions by using the Scriptures alone.

Dispensationalism is simply a system of theories that it then applies onto the Scriptures and then attempts to see to its audience....as opposed to a system that is built from the Scriptures, and determined by the Scriptures.

Any willing berean can read the scriptures of the originating post above, and by the Holy Spirit, receive the proper and correct understanding that is intended. No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!

Ah, Mr. Taylor, would that I could rep you 7 x 70 times....

(First I would do it seven times, and then 62 times, and then once more for good measure!) (But not... literally)

:thumbsup:
 
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Hedgehog

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The gospel of OUR salvation isnt found in the preaching of Peter and the boys; nor is it found in the earthly words of Christ

Yes it is.
Here Paul himself uses the law and the prophets to show people the Truth.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

What scriptures do you suppose that "from a child" anyone had avaliable to them, to make them wise unto SALVATION?

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


I am really curious about what a dispensationalist would say about this:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever.

Ok Paul PLAINLY states HIS GOSPEL , he makes manifest by using the words of the prophets.
But your telling me THE gospel, OUR gospel... is only found in Pauls epistles?



Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

exactly, what scriptures did the bereans search daily to see if these things were so?


The reason one decides to seperate the worlds history into dispensations and different salvation methods is because they do not understand- they wear the same blinders that OT Hebrews did..... they do not see the spiritual application that was ALWAYS there, from the beginning.
They wait for earthly like the Jews did. But PLEASE, think on this.... most Jews passed right on by the Savior because they expected things of the earth and refused to see the real glory of God.


Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Jesus used parables alot. It doesnt mean that he wasnt pointing towards the same truths.

I am saddened, not angry, not bugged, not ticked off... just saddened, when I see people waiting and expecting EARTHLY things of our Lord, and glossing right over the spiritual things He did.

I seen you say you give someone your BLESSING to err and go wrong.
I can not do that.
I dont give you my blessing to wait for another temple on earth and think it will have any worth because that will mean you are not understanding the TRUE TEMPLE, THAT IS ALREADY HERE.
I can not give you my blessing to believe that sacrificing will " look back" to Jesus..... when sacrificing NEVER did anything then, it certainly wont in the future.
Get your eyes off the earth and worthless things and get them on God and His spiritual things.
 
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Ebb

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Dispy said:
The Chruch, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. Therefore, there is no need for John to write to them. NO, I do not find the Chruch, the Body of Christ, in the entire book of the Revelation.
If the Church is raptured to heaven, then shouldn't we expect the Church to be seen with Christ in the book of Revelation? You do see Christ in the book of Revelation, don't you?



17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:17




 
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Dispy

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Ebb said:
If the Church is raptured to heaven, then shouldn't we expect the Church to be seen with Christ in the book of Revelation? You do see Christ in the book of Revelation, don't you?

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:17​

Yes, I do see Christ in the book of the Revelation. I also see Christ in shadows and types in the OT.

The book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophesies. The Chruch, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the OT prophesies. So Why would one expect to find the Body of Christ in the book of the Revelation?

The Body of Christ has a heavenly hope, not an earthly one.

For a better understanding of this, PLEASE read the article at http://www.gracealive.us/misunderstood.html. It will explain God's plan for both the heaven and the earth.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
 
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Ebb

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Dispy said:
The book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophesies. The Chruch, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the OT prophesies. So Why would one expect to find the Body of Christ in the book of the Revelation?
In order for 1 Thes 4:17 to be true (ever being with the Lord after the Rapture).
 
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Dispy

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Dispy said:
The book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophesies. The Chruch, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the OT prophesies. So Why would one expect to find the Body of Christ in the book of the Revelation?

Ebb said:
In order for 1 Thes 4:17 to be true (ever being with the Lord after the Rapture).

The Lord is a Trinity, and omni-present. He has it all worked out for us.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
 
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eph3Nine

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Dispy wrote:

The Body of Christ has a heavenly hope, not an earthly one.

For a better understanding of this, PLEASE read the article at
http://www.gracealive.us/misunderstood.html. It will explain God's plan for both the heaven and the earth.

one has an earthly hope and calling, one has a heavenly hope and calling...amen...nothing hard about that!
 
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eph3Nine

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53Isaiah said:
This thread certainly does not exhibit the character of Christ. I would encourage you all to hold fast the faithful word that we may be able by sound doctrine also love one another as Christ.

Love, above all else, tells the truth. Its not loving to stand by and watch another gospel and another jesus be preached without standing firm to defend THE faith. If we begin with the wrong premise we come to a wrong conclusion...and the ONLY way back is to study what saith the WORD, rightly divided.

Niceness at the price of sound doctrine is not what I see to be love....altho we CAN disagree agreeably, its not always the case when peoples belief systems are questioned and they feel threatened.

So.....all that to say this...ya got somethin to say, come on in and talk. If yer just gonna drive by and shoot...heres a bag of popcorn and a ticket to a movie...have fun!:wave:
 
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