Who applied the Church to Israel..chapter & verse please. Part 3.

Status
Not open for further replies.

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
JWhalen so aptly said:

I am not on these boards to "duel", but to argue(which is good!) and persuade, and yes, debate. After all, this is "serious business"-eternal souls are at stake. I cannot speak for others, but my motivation is not to "win" a debate, but to convey/communicate the truth of the Holy Bible rightly divided.. I hope you understand, that, it would be "easy", and "comfortable", to just sit back in my "Eazy Boy recliner", smile, wink, and embrace the attitude "So what, that is just his opinion. I'm saved, why should I subject myself to the criticism that inevitably results from such an endevour?"

And my answer: I have no choice, for I am an "...ambassador for Christ..."(2 Cor. 5:20), and thus have been given a charge, and have been given the honor, of representing the true "Commander-In-Chief", the Lord Jesus Christ in "...the ministry of reconciliation..."(2 Cor. 5:18) in "enemy territory", which is "...this present evil world..."(Galatians 1:4). And included in this charge is the LORD God's desire for you to see the mystery:

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery(emphasis mine), which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ...." Ephesians 3:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"(emphasis mine). 1 Timothy 2:3,4 The "knowledge of the truth", here, in the context of the passage, is knowing the mystery.

Couldn't have said it better myself!! Excellent.:thumbsup: :amen:

AND nobody says it better than GOD!!!!:clap: ^_^
 
Upvote 0

Ebb

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2003
539
12
63
Visit site
✟745.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
eph3Nine said:
Uh Ebb....posts nineteen and twenty went into GREAT detail answering those questions. Are you here to READ, or to argue?
I didn't get any answers, just that Revelation is not for us, or something to that effect.

Who are the 7 churches in Revelation?
Who are the 24 elders?
Who is the great multitude?

Are you saying that the "mystery church" is not mentioned at all in Revelation?
 
Upvote 0

Ebb

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2003
539
12
63
Visit site
✟745.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
So, you don't consider yourselves part of this "great multitude"? You don't plan on singing the "Hallelujah Chorus"?
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Revelation 19:6

 
Upvote 0

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Ebb said:
I didn't get any answers, just that Revelation is not for us, or something to that effect.

Who are the 7 churches in Revelation?
Who are the 24 elders?
Who is the great multitude?

Are you saying that the "mystery church" is not mentioned at all in Revelation?

Im not saying it...God has said it. :D

The Mystery church ...the Church, which IS His Body has been LONG GONE and taken UP to meet her Lord in the AIR.

Since you aren't taking care to actually READ what the answers to your questions ARE...then don't expect us to take the time to do YOUR research FOR you anymore.

All those mentioned in Revelation have to do with Israel ...NOT with we the Body of Christ.

Have a nice day.:sigh:
 
Upvote 0

Ebb

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2003
539
12
63
Visit site
✟745.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
eph3Nine said:
Im not saying it...God has said it. :D

The Mystery church ...the Church, which IS His Body has been LONG GONE and taken UP to meet her Lord in the AIR.

Since you aren't taking care to actually READ what the answers to your questions ARE...then don't expect us to take the time to do YOUR research FOR you anymore.

All those mentioned in Revelation have to do with Israel ...NOT with we the Body of Christ.

Have a nice day.:sigh:

If the "mystery church" is not in Revelation at all, then who are these groups?

Who are the 7 churches?
Who are the 24 elders?
Who is the great multitude?
Who are the 144,000?
 
Upvote 0

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Ebb said:
If the "mystery church" is not in Revelation at all, then who are these groups?

Who are the 7 churches?
Who are the 24 elders?
Who is the great multitude?
Who are the 144,000?

Scripture answers these questions if you rightly divide.

Im not doing your homework FOR YOU...however, I will give you ONE answer for a teaser...scripture tells us that the 144,000 are JEWS. Raised up by God to preach the KINGDOM MESSAGE to the KINGDOM PEOPLE.

Geeesh....Please read the things we post...Im tired of repeating myself to you.
 
Upvote 0

Ebb

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2003
539
12
63
Visit site
✟745.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
eph3Nine said:
Scripture answers these questions if you rightly divide.

Im not doing your homework FOR YOU...however, I will give you ONE answer for a teaser...scripture tells us that the 144,000 are JEWS. Raised up by God to preach the KINGDOM MESSAGE to the KINGDOM PEOPLE.

Geeesh....Please read the things we post...Im tired of repeating myself to you.
I'm just trying to find out if these are the beliefs of Mid-Acts dispensationalism, or is this just "freelance" coming from you.

Not meaning to be offensive, but so far you have made some pretty incredible statements, and it's hard to believe any educated Christian can make them. Can you provide links with what you are saying from "more qualified, better-educated" expositors from the Mid-Acts camp?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Excellent information written by JWhalen:

Israel's eternal destination is earth, not heaven. God promised Israel a literal, physical, visible, earthly, Davidic, Messianic kingdom, with Jesus Christ as the king of kings, ruling over the twelve apostles, who would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, who rule over the nations of this earth. - Genesis 12:7, 13:14-17, 17:8, Numbers 33:50-56, Deuteronomy 6:23, 11:21, Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 23:5, Psalm 37:9-11, Matthew 5:5, Matthew 6:10.

The Great Tribulation is centered on earth, it's focus being apostate Israel and the unbelieving nations, not the Body of Christ, which was a mystery that was not in existence until the Lord Jesus Christ revealed it to Paul progressively.

The Rapture will conclude this "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), and you will only find it in the Pauline epistles-it was a mystery, so forget about looking for it in the OT. The Rapture is a part of the secret mystery revealed through Paul for believers in this dispensation of grace. We are not told to look for the anti-Christ, or the "abomination of desolation", but for the Lord's deliverance of us out of this present evil world(Gal. 1:4), for "that blessed hope"(Titus 2:13), and to "wait for his Son from heaven"(1 Thes. 1:10) prior to the LORD's wrath on this Christ-rejecting world.

I generally find those who expect to go through the Great Tribulation, the modern day "Rambos", usually either do not understand the purpose of the cross, and correspondingly, the purpose of the Great Tribulation. I typically hear such verses as "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God"(Acts 14:22), as proof texts that believers will go through the Great Trib. Granted, all believers are promised general tribulation in this life in terms of suffering,(Romans 5:3,8:35; 12:12; 2 Cor. 1:4, 7:4, 12:10; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thes. 3:3....). However, believers in this dispensation are promised deliverance from "wrath"(Romans 5:9) "to come"(1 Thes. 1:10), for "God hath not appointed us to wrath"(1 Thes. 5:9)-the 7 year Tribulation.. This wrath is "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to the same time: and at that time thy people"(Daniel 12:1-Israel, not the Body of Christ), for "there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it"(Joel 2:2), as depicted in Exodus 11:6, "none like it", and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ in Mt. 24:21.

I will not participate in the Great Trib. as outlined in Revelation(and other scripture)-you can stay, but I will not be here. The purpose of Daniel's 70th week of years is for "Jacob's trouble", and is stated in simple, 5th grade English to be for Israel: Jer. 30:7, Daniel 9:20-25, and unbelievers: 1 Thes. 1:8, 2:12, not believers, whose sin(singular) has already been judged at Calvary(Romans 8:3-"condemned sin in the flesh"), whose sins were completely forgiven at Calvary(Romans 4:5-8;Eph. 1:7,4:32; Col. 1:14, 2:13,3:13), and who have been justified by the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection as proof(Romans 4:25,5:10).

The reasons for the Trib. are for God to exercise His wrath on a predominantly Christ-rejecting world, to exercise wrath on Satan, and to prepare the remnant of Israel(including Gentile proselytes) for it's promised King, the Lord Jesus Christ, and earthly kingdom(Deut, 4:29-30, 11:21; Jer. 30:3-11;Zech. 12:10). Just as the Lord Jesus Christ's physical body and spirit suffered the wrath of His heavenly Father for us ONCE, and no more, his spiritual body in this dispensation will likewise not suffer the magnitude of the suffering that awaits in the Great Trib. 2000 years ago this great Saviour already experienced this in our stead=in our place.


PLEASE read it..."faith comes by HEARING (not arguing what has already been stated twice) and Hearing by the Word of God"

Thank you
 
Upvote 0

JMWHALEN

Senior Member
Nov 18, 2005
651
3
67
✟2,723.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Ebb said:
I'm just trying to find out if these are the beliefs of Mid-Acts dispensationalism, or is this just "freelance" coming from you.

Not meaning to be offensive, but so far you have made some pretty incredible statements, and it's hard to believe any educated Christian can make them. Can you provide links with what you are saying from "more qualified, better-educated" expositors from the Mid-Acts camp?
___
(underline/bold is my emphasis)

"and it's hard to believe any educated Christian can make them. Can you provide links with what you are saying from "more qualified, better-educated" expositors from the Mid-Acts camp?"
_____________________

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?...how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...." 1 Cor. 1:19,20,26,27

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise..." Genesis 3:6

"He taketh the wise in their own craftiness..." Job 5:13

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." 1 Cor. 3:19,20

"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:21


"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isaiah 29:12


"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13


"The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts." Malachi 2:12

"And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass.....And the ass said unto Balaam..." Numbers 22:28,30,

".....that they may have glory of men...... that they may be seen of men..." Matthew 6:2,5

"...thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25/Luke 10:21

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,..." Romans 1:22

In Christ,
John M. Whalen
 
Upvote 0

Dispy

Veteran
Jan 16, 2004
2,551
32
92
South Dakota
✟4,680.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
JMWHALEN said:
___
(underline/bold is my emphasis)

"and it's hard to believe any educated Christian can make them. Can you provide links with what you are saying from "more qualified, better-educated" expositors from the Mid-Acts camp?"
_____________________

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?...how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...." 1 Cor. 1:19,20,26,27

John:
How can you expect that 'learned men, like Ebb, to understand what you have just posted?

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise..." Genesis 3:6

"He taketh the wise in their own craftiness..." Job 5:13

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." 1 Cor. 3:19,20

"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:21


"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isaiah 29:12


"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13


"The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts." Malachi 2:12

"And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass.....And the ass said unto Balaam..." Numbers 22:28,30,

".....that they may have glory of men...... that they may be seen of men..." Matthew 6:2,5

"...thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25/Luke 10:21

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,..." Romans 1:22

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

John:
How can you expect "learned men," such as Ebb, to understand what you have just posted? He is looking to other "learned men" to guide him. It appears that they are unable to see the simplicity of the GOSPEL. It just goes right over their heads.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!
 
Upvote 0

Ebb

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2003
539
12
63
Visit site
✟745.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Dispy said:
John:
How can you expect "learned men," such as Ebb, to understand what you have just posted? He is looking to other "learned men" to guide him. It appears that they are unable to see the simplicity of the GOSPEL. It just goes right over their heads.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!

They have both stated that the Church is not in Revelation at all, not even the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3.....I was just trying to see if this is an "official" Mid-Acts belief, or if it's just a "freelance" one of the posters here.

I did check the "Berean Bible Society" web site (Mid-Acts) to see if this was their view as well....but could not find a direct statement on this. I did notice that the web site does not include any commentary on the book of Revelation.

I'm just trying to find out when the break from classical dispensationalism occurred regarding the Church not being in Revelation at all.
 
Upvote 0

Dispy

Veteran
Jan 16, 2004
2,551
32
92
South Dakota
✟4,680.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ebb said:
[/indent]This is the first I've heard that Revelation 5:9-10 does not refer to the Church. Who do you think the great multitude and the 24 elders are representative of? Are the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 part of the Body of Christ?

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches WHICH ARE IN ASIA;..."

The Chruch, the Body of Christ, is universal, not in any particular part of the world.

These 7 churches, I believe, were started by the Jews that were dispersed during the presecution, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul (he was the leader of the persecutors). They settled primarily well North of Jerusalem, in the region of modern day Trukey.


Rev.1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candle sticks. The seven stars are the ageels of the seven churches: and the seven candle sticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

"Stars/golden candle sticks/angles" are NEVER associated with the Chruch, the body of Christ. They ALWAYS have reference to Israel.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. Therefore, there is no need for John to write to them. NO, I do not find the Chruch, the Body of Christ, in the entire book of the Revelation.

Didn't John, agree with Paul, that he would stay with the circumcision, in Galatians 2:9?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Markea

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,690
146
✟6,561.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ebb said:
They have both stated that the Church is not in Revelation at all, not even the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3.....I was just trying to see if this is an "official" Mid-Acts belief, or if it's just a "freelance" one of the posters here.

I did check the "Berean Bible Society" web site (Mid-Acts) to see if this was their view as well....but could not find a direct statement on this. I did notice that the web site does not include any commentary on the book of Revelation.

I'm just trying to find out when the break from classical dispensationalism occurred regarding the Church not being in Revelation at all.

Ebb,

Isn't it ironic that these ones who always claim that they 'rightly divide' the word of God, fail to rightly divide the word of God as it is divided already in the Revelation..? ?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ divides itself into things which John hast seen (past), things which are (present), and things which shall be hereafter (future).

To these folks.. it all pertains to things which shall be hereafter..

Go figure.. they always claim to rightly divide, and yet when the book divides itself.. they fail to see it.. I guess it goes right under their heads..
 
Upvote 0

GLJCA

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2005
1,152
57
72
Louisiana
✟1,608.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
JMWHALEN said:
will comment on the following:
part 1:


2. The only mediator recognized in this dispensation is the Lord Jesus Christ: "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus"-1 Tim. 2:5). Furthermore, his priesthood is in heaven("For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest..."-Hebrews 8:4) not earth,after the order of Melchizedek, which necessarily set aside the Levitical order. The Levitical priests were ordained of God under the Law. Their work was merely symbolic and typical of the true priestly work of the Lord Jesus Christ, our great high priest.

Could you explain to us what Jesus is the mediator of? Isn't it the New Covenant? If so, how is He recognized as a mediator in this dispensation, when you believe that the New Covenant is not in effect?

Is Jesus your High Priest? He was also the High Priest of the people to whom the book of Hebrews was written, who you say are not part of the body of Christ.

GLJCA
 
Upvote 0

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Dispy Wrote:
Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches WHICH ARE IN ASIA;..."

The Church, the Body of Christ, is universal, not in any particular part of the world.

These 7 churches, I believe, were started by the Jews that were dispersed during the presecution, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul (he was the leader of the persecutors). They settled primarily well North of Jerusalem, in the region of modern day Turkey.


Rev.1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candle sticks. The seven stars are the ageels of the seven churches: and the seven candle sticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

"Stars/golden candle sticks/angels" are NEVER associated with the Chruch, the body of Christ. They ALWAYS have reference to Israel.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. Therefore, there is no need for John to write to them. NO, I do not find the Church, the Body of Christ, in the entire book of the Revelation.

AAAAAmen. Anyone who can READ can see these things. The problem here is that folks wish to hang onto PRECONCEIVED ideas taught to them in their denominations or church traditions...both of which are highly frowned upon by the God we serve. He has given instructions to we the Body of Christ, and they arent found in ISRAELS prophetic books.

Great post, John.
 
Upvote 0

Markea

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,690
146
✟6,561.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I do not find the Church, the Body of Christ, in the entire book of the Revelation.

All that this proves is that a person can not find what is right there in front of them..

To the mid-Acts folks.. the things which are in the Revelation become the things which are not.. ? ?

And this from the ones who always rightly divide..

Yikes..
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eph3Nine

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Nov 7, 2005
4,999
6
77
In the hills of Tennessee
✟5,251.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Quoted from Ebb
I'm just trying to find out if these are the beliefs of Mid-Acts dispensationalism, or is this just "freelance" coming from you.
Not meaning to be offensive, but so far you have made some pretty incredible statements, and it's hard to believe any educated Christian can make them. Can you provide links with what you are saying from "more qualified, better-educated" expositors from the Mid-Acts camp?
quot-bot-left.gif
quot-bot-right.gif

Excuse me????? The claims he makes are from Gods Word...it dont get no better than that, my friend. And I , for one, find your comment OFFENSIVE to the max. Geeeesh:mad:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.