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Who applied the Church to Israel..chapter & verse please. Part 3.

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Dave Taylor, Nov 21, 2005.

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  1. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Senior Member

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    Jesus said to the chief priests and elders of the Jewish people: "I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it" (Matthew 21:43).

    No need for additional inserted commentary or persuasive external explanations.



    THE CIRCUMCISED
    A) Disobedient Israelites are not the Circumcised:
    - "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will punish all those who are circumcised in body but not in spirit. Egypt, Judah, Edom, and the children of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert, that cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are circumcised, and unless all the house of Israel circumcise their hearts by loving Me to the exclusion of the world, your fleshly circumcision is a heathen rite like theirs" (Jeremiah 9:25-26; Romans 2:25,28; Philippians 3:2).



    B) The OT Faithful Believers are the Circumcised:
    - "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be circumcised" (Genesis 17:10; Judges 15:18).

    C)
    The NT Faithful Believers are also the Circumcised:
    - "He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, a spiritual observance rather than a mere literal observation of the Law. His praise comes not from men but from God" (Romans 2:29).

    - "For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in what Christ Jesus has done for us, and put no confidence in the flesh, for we cannot save ourselves" (Philippians 3:3).

    - "In Christ you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in stripping the worldly nature and past sins of the old man from off your soul" (Colossians 2:11).










    ISRAEL
    A) Disobedient Israelites are not Israel:
    - "The soul, whether born in the land, or a foreigner, who reviles the Lord; and that person shall be destroyed from among His people" (Numbers 15:30-31; Acts 3:23; Romans 9:6).



    B) The OT Faithful Believers are called Israel
    Israel is an election to whom God has revealed His will. Initially it was drawn from a nation born of Abraham, through Isaac and through Jacob - individuals whose faith manifested the Light of God's revealed Word for their day. When the nation rejected that Light and killed the Light-bearer, God turned from that hereditary bloodline to call a people for His Name from an election whose flesh is born of the first Adam but whose soul is born by faith in the last Adam who is Abraham's Seed, Jesus Christ.

    C)
    The NT Faithful Believers are also called Israel:
    - "You do not consider that it is expedient for us, that one Man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish. Caiaphas did not speak of his own accord but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for Israel only, but that also He should gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad" (John 11:50-52; Deuteronomy 32:21; Isaiah 49:6; 55:5; Malachi 1:11; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 1:10).

    - Considering the Israelites as the spiritual ancestors of we Christians, Paul says, "I would have you to know, brethren, that although our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea . . ." (I Corinthians 10:1).

    - "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but a new creation. Peace and mercy upon all of you who live by this principle, upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16; Hebrews 8:6,8,10).

    - "At that time you were separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world . . . Now you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:12,19).












    JERUSALEM
    A) Old Jerusalem was God's only provided Place of Worship for natural Israel

    - "You may not sacrifice the Passover within any of your gates, which the Lord your God has given you: but at the place which the Lord your God shall choose to place His Name in, there you shall sacrifice the Passover at evening, at the going down of the sun, at the season that you came forth out of Egypt" (Deuteronomy 16:5-6).


    B) New Jerusalem will be God's only provided Place of Worship for the
    The OT & NT Faithful Believers
    - "The nations of the saved shall walk in the Light of New Jerusalem, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory and honour into it. Its gates will remain open for there will be no night there" (Revelation 21:24-26).

    C) Heavenly Jerusalem is the Lamb's Book of Life, and mother of all of God's Elect
    - "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"

    - "You have come to mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven"

    - "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2). (Galatians 4:26). (Hebrews 12:22-23).












    THE NEW COVENANT
    A) The New Covenant is with
    The OT Faithful Believers:
    - "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. . . But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and upon their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Jeremiah 31:31,33; Ezekiel 36:26-27; 37:11-28).

    B) The New Covenant is
    also with The NT Faithful Believers :
    - "This cup is the New Testament in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25).

    - "God has qualified us to be ministers of the New Testament; not in a written Law, but in the Spirit: for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives Life" (II Corinthians 3:6).

    - "Now Christ has obtained a ministry which is far superior to the old Laws as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is established upon better promises. . . Finding fault with them, God said, The days will come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah . . . This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts: and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Hebrews 8:6,8,10).









    THE OLIVE TREE
    A)
    The OT Faithful Believers are the Olive Tree:
    - "A green olive tree, fair, with goodly fruit, the Lord once called you; but at the roaring of the great tempest He will set fire to it and consume its branches" (Jeremiah 11:16; Hosea 14:6).

    B) The
    NT Faithful Believers are also the Olive Tree:
    - "If you have been cut from a naturally wild olive tree and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, then how much more readily will these natural branches be grafted into their own original tree?"
    (Romans 11:24).


     
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  2. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    Wrong premise...wrong conclusion
     
  3. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Senior Member

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    This post contained no premises nor any conclusions.

    It contains Scripture only...it will convict and teach and provide proper understanding to those who will accept it and receive it with a willing heart.
     
  4. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    No, it didn't. It contained explanations for what was being said above it. Much of what isn't what was actually being said at all!

    The conclusions of the writer were the items NOT in quotes.....wink.:wave:
     
  5. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    will comment on the following:
    part 1:

    (underline/caps/bold is my emphasis)

    " The NT Faithful Believers are also Priests of God:
    - "Like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. . . you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people; that you may show others the praises of God who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light" (I Peter 2:5,9).

    - "Jesus Christ has made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

    - "Jesus Christ has made us a kingdom, and priests to our God and we shall reign over the earth" (Revelation 5:10).


    and
    The NT Faithful Believers are also the Chosen People:
    - "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, God's own people; so that you may declare the perfections of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light. Once you were no people but now you are the people of God: who once experienced no mercy, but now you have received mercy" (I Peter 2:9-10). "


    _________________________________________________________________________________________


    1. The only "priesthood" on earth that was(past tense)recognized by the LORD God was the Levitcal priesthood after the order of Aaron. The Mosaic law requires ministers of the Aaronic order to be descendants of Levi, and the high priest to descend from Aaron. You had to be born into the tribe of Levi to become a priest, and you had to be a male. If you do not meet both of these requirements, you are disqualified. Another result of failure to rightly divide-the priesthood. Nowhere in Paul's epistles, Romans-Philemon, which are the doctrine for the body of Christ in this "...dispensation of the grace of God...."(Eph. 3:2), are members of the body referred to as "priests", "kings", or "a holy nation"-this has application only to Israel. The body of Christ is not a mediatorial body in this dispensation.


    2. The only mediator recognized in this dispensation is the Lord Jesus Christ: "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus"-1 Tim. 2:5). Furthermore, his priesthood is in heaven("For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest..."-Hebrews 8:4) not earth,after the order of Melchizedek, which necessarily set aside the Levitical order. The Levitical priests were ordained of God under the Law. Their work was merely symbolic and typical of the true priestly work of the Lord Jesus Christ, our great high priest.

    3. The only priesthood that will be recognized in the future on earth, during the millennial kingdom, will be from the nation of Israel-this has no reference to the Body Of Christ in this dispensation:

    " And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19:6

    "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 2:5

    ""But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...." 1 Peter 2:9

    "But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves." Isaiah 61:6

    "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." Revelation 1:6

    "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 5:10

    "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Rev. 20:6

    "What was happening" when John the Baptist was baptizing?:

    John's baptism was not something "new"-conversely, it was a ceremony thoroughly understood by those who read the scripture(or should have been understood-hence, the Lord Jesus Christ's piercing question to someone who should have understood: "...Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not of these things?"-John 3:10), and to whom he ministered.

    Water baptism did not begin with John the Baptist. In the Holy Bible we are able to trace its development, and we discover that water baptism is a ceremonial cleansing pertaining exclusivly to the kingdom promised to the nation Israel.

    In Exodus 19:5,6, at the very giving of the Mosaic Covenant, the LORD-God's purpose in giving birth to the nation Israel is revealed clearly. The LORD God's stated purpose concerning the nation Israel is that she is to be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentile nations will draw nigh to God, i.e., the "channel/instrument" of blessing. Isaiah refers to this::

    "But YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD." (Isaiah 61:6).

    Ultimately this will be realized during the kingdom reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, when Israel is dwelling in her land and the nations find salvation and blessing through her instrumentality. This also explains Zech. 8:23-Israel will be a nation of priests, the channel for blessings to the world:

    "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

    All of this awaits Israel's future redemption. The "If ye will obey...then ye shall be" principle of the law assured that the "knowledge of sin" would abound. Because of Israel's failure, the nation Israel soon found herself in need of a Redeemer. Thus while the hope of Israel looked to the promised coming kingdom, the need of the nation for cleansing must first be faced.

    With this background, we need to remember that of all the people/ things to be "baptized", it was the priest who stood foremost. Exodus 29 sets forth the procedure for induction into the priest's office, the "initiation rights", if you will. Two very important steps of consecration are included:

    First , cleansing-a washing with water:

    "And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and SHALT WASH THEM WITH WATER." (Exodus 29:4).

    Second, the anointing with oil:
    "Then shalt thou TAKE THE ANOINTING OIL, AND POUR IT UPON HIS HEAD, AND ANOINT HIM." (Exodus 29:7).

    Just as the sons of Aaron were the priests through whom the people of Israel could approach God, so the nation Israel itself will one day be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentiles will draw near to God (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:17,18, Isaiah 60:1-3, Zechariah 8:20-23..............). It is in this light, and in this context, that "the Baptist" appears on the scene preaching his "...baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel" (Acts 13:24).

    That is, John's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4) was a means of national repentance and preparation to fulfil their role, their honor, as the kingdom of priests God which graciously ordained that favored nation to be. Matthew 3:1,2 is critical here:



    "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    And how, in what manner, were they to thus prepare for this coming kingdom, this coming period referred to in Deuteronomy 11:21 as "...the days of heaven upon the earth...."?

    "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    "And WERE BAPTIZED OF HIM IN JORDAN, CONFESSING THEIR SINS." Mt. 3:5,6.

    And:

    And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." Mk. 1:5.

    "…Now when all the people were baptized…." Luke 3:21


    John's baptism was the only means of fleeing from "...the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7).

    And the Holy Bible removes any doubt as to what this wrath entailed:

    "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also THE AXE IS LAID UNTO THE ROOT OF THE TREES; THEREFORE EVERY TREE WHICH BRINGETH NOT FORTH GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND WITH FIRE:
    Whose fan is in his hand, and HE WILL THOROUGHLY PURGE HIS FLOOR, AND GATHER HIS WHEAT INTO THE GARNER; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE" Mt. 3:8-12.

    Notice the choice set before Israel was this: a judgment was imminent, and if they wanted to be the "wheat" safely carried into the barn, and not the "chaff" burned with the fire of judgment, they must be identified(the basic meaning of baptism) as the believing remnant through the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


    Just as in Numbers 31:21-24, if they wanted to escape the fire, they must "go through the water!" And thus, they would be "purified with the water of separation" and identified together as the believing remnant in Israel-set apart as "an holy nation."

    In Christ,
    John M. Whalen


     
  6. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    part 2:

    And notice the pattern: wash in water, oil, blood.

    " And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,Take Aaron and his sons with him, and the garments, and the anointing oil, and a bullock for the sin offering, and two rams, and a basket of unleavened bread...And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.... Lev. 8:1-2,6,12


    "And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water" Lev. 8:6


    "And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him." Lev 8:12


    "And he slew it; and Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot." Lev. 8:23

    And notice this!:


    The Lord Jesus Christ comes to the Jordan, is baptized(washed), the Holy Spirit comes upon him(oil), and later he is baptized on the cross with blood:

    " But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22,23

    "And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38,39

    "And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50


    In general Scriptural usage the word baptism indicates complete identification, whether with an element, a person or a group, for the purpose of union, oneness-the basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity. Again, the primary meaning is 'to change the nature, identity, condition, status, and to IDENTIFY something with its purpose' This is why Paul said in Romans 6:3, "As many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death. "In other words, the only way to become one with Christ is to be identified with Him in His death by faith(another subject!).

    Notice:

    "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water." Jn 1:31

    The Lord Jesus Christ was being manifest, or IDENTIFIED, as THE PRIEST, to Israel.

    And one of the other reasons for the Lord Jesus Christ submitting to "John's baptism"-this was part of the righteous requirements of the Law to enter the priesthoodness. The Lord Jesus Christ came to fulfill the rigtheous requirements of the entire Law, of which baptism was a part. This explains:

    "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Mt. 3:15

    And this explains the following scriptures:

    "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age…" Luke 3:23
    "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" John 8:27

    Ever wonder why the ages of 30 and 50 are emphasized? "Why the heck" would the Jewish leadership ask about "fifty years old?" And why does the Holy Bible take note "for our learning"(Romans 15:4) that the Lord Jesus Christ was "about thirty years of age"?

    The answer:
    "From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:3
    "From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; all that enter in to perform the service, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:30.
    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation…" Numbers 4:35
    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation…" Numbers 4:39
    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation,…" Numbers 4:43
    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:47
    "And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more…" Numbers 8:25:

    Age 30 was the beginning age for service for the Levitcal priests, and 50 was the ending age:

    "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers…" Numbers 4:1-2

    And this explains all the Israelites at the Jordan being "baptized"-this was there initiation rite into being a "kingdom of priests". This has no reference to the body of Christ in this dispensation.


    In Christ,
    John M. Whalen
     
  7. Ebb

    Ebb Active Member

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    Then why did Paul baptize Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus?




    13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. I Corinthians 1:13-16 ​

    This is clearly refuted in Revelation 5:9-10 and the other passages below. The priests are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9-10
    5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. I Peter 2:5

    5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:5-6

    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6



     
  8. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Senior Member

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    Notice how when the Dispensational view drops by to discuss the scriptures presented, it must bring loads and loads of its own interpretational commentary with it, and even with the verses that does give, must filter all of them down by providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted.

    Dispensationalism simply cannot stand when the Word of God alone is used to answer questions by using the Scriptures alone.

    Dispensationalism is simply a system of theories that it then applies onto the Scriptures and then attempts to see to its audience....as opposed to a system that is built from the Scriptures, and determined by the Scriptures.

    Any willing berean can read the scriptures of the originating post above, and by the Holy Spirit, receive the proper and correct understanding that is intended. No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!
     
  9. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    LOL...why dont you simply admit you dont STUDY! Studying requires that scripture interpret scripture...not simply stand alone on one mans INTERPRETATION. You dont even have the basics down on honest and sincere bible study methods.

    Truly comical. Scripture rightly divided is where we FIND the answers. We dont have to "make them up as we go along"

    Go play somewhere else...you are becoming tiresome. :yawn: :sleep:
     
  10. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Senior Member

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    Nope, Ephie, I'm not leaving. Especially when you dismiss me.

    As long as you plan on staying around sharing all of your sliced-and-diced, personal interpretations of man, I will be one who remains to show the scriptural error of your teachings.

    Let those who truly study, read the scriptures of this post, and the Holy Spirit, not dispensational filtered persuasive comments will do the teaching and provide the understanding.

    You claim to base all of your theories on scripture, but most of your posts contain private re-interpretations and insults....remember the post you did a few days ago calling non-dispensationalists witches? Yea, that was real kind of you!

    Go back and read the scriptures Eohie, and see that God has one people and one program....the faithful are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and He gives them eternal life. That includes all of the faithfully redemed of all ages.
     
  11. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    There you go again...saying something that WAS NOT STATED at all , as fact!

    BEWITCHED is a biblical term..it was given biblical definition and application. If you wish to include yourself as one who is bewitched, then you have that right, but NO One said that non dispensationalists "are witches". This kind of misrepresentation for the sake of stirring up arguments is highly frowned upon.
     
  12. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Senior Member

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    Ok Folks....When it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....here's the duck below.

    Surely have enough integrity to admit you were calling non-dispensational believers witches by this earlier post....to deny it isn't fooling anyone.


     
  13. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    We can all read....LOL

    It is YOU that seems to be having the difficulty.

    They were BEWITCHED...trying to give life to something God already said was dead. THAT is the context...speaking of the GALATIANS and in warning to us NOT to do the same.

    Thats a BIG LEAP you took from what I actually SAID, to "shes calling all non dispensationalists 'witches', wouldnt ya say???

    Your methods are SO transparent as to be laffable.
     
  14. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    underline/caps is my emphasis

    A response to Dave, part 1, who writes:

    "This post contained no premises nor any conclusions. It contains Scripture only...it will convict and teach and provide proper understanding to those who will accept it and receive it with a willing heart.

    Thanks for providing an argument that "commits suicide", i.e., a self-refuting statement, an argument/statement that defeats itself..

    -"Who applied the Church to Israel..chapter & verse please. Part 3."

    This is a premise within a question.

    -You state "This post.......contains Scripture only....", and yet this statement itself commits suicide, since this very statement is not Scripture. If it is, I suggest you start writing some "more Bible" immediately after Revelation 22:21. Additionally, it is your "opinion", your asssertion, your conclusion(""This post contained no premises nor any conclusions") TILT

    The statement "It contains Scripture only...it will convict and teach and provide proper understanding to those who will accept it and receive it with a willing heart" is a conclusion.

    "This post contained no premises nor any conclusions"

    I will let the board decide!

    more premises:

    "THE CIRCUMCISED

    A) Disobedient Israelites are not the Circumcised:"

    B) The OT Faithful Believers are the Circumcised

    C) The NT Faithful Believers are also the Circumcised

    B) The OT Faithful Believers are called Israel

    ISRAEL

    A) Disobedient Israelites are not Israel:

    B) The OT Faithful Believers are called Israel

    and on and on.....
    _____________________________________________________________

    "providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted."

    "Notice how when the Dispensational view drops by to discuss the scriptures presented, it must bring loads and loads of its own interpretational commentary with it, and even with the verses that does give, must filter all of them down by providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted.

    Dispensationalism simply cannot stand when the Word of God alone is used to answer questions by using the Scriptures alone.

    Dispensationalism is simply a system of theories that it then applies onto the Scriptures and then attempts to see to its audience....as opposed to a system that is built from the Scriptures, and determined by the Scriptures.

    Any willing berean can read the scriptures of the originating post above, and by the Holy Spirit, receive the proper and correct understanding that is intended. No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!"

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Thanks for providing another argument that "commits suicide", i.e., a self-refuting statement.

    1."providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted."

    Question: And just tell all of us on the board how you are able to provide this opinion, without formulating your own fallible opinion(from scripture)on how it is to be interpreted? TILT=My work is done before I get started.


    "Any willing berean can read the scriptures of the originating post above, and by the Holy Spirit, receive the proper and correct understanding that is intended. No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!"

    2.. "No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!"

    By that logic, the words of scripture are not given by inspiration, the Holy Spirit's "intent" is inspired, and therefore no "proper and correct understanding", which is the definition of interpretation, is required by any of us=what you call re-interpretation. "Thus saith the LORD" becomes "Thus saith the Holy Spirit's intent", and "...Thy word is true from the beginning..."(Psalms 119:160) becomes "The Holy Spirit's intent is true from the beginning".

    3. "that is intended"? Of course, this person cannot grasp that "intended" is a subjective term, not an objective term. Personal interpretation by each and every fallible member of the body of Christ of the words of the Holy Bible, not the "intended thoughts" of the Holy Bible, is unavoidable. The "intended thoughts" are the interpretation, the end result, if you will, of STUDY. By this "logic", "class dismissed. We can learn nothing from each other. Close the board. As a matter of fact, anyone that has paid for any lessons on this board should demand a refund." Additionally, being a former "Roman", I need to call "the Magesterium" for its infallible interpretation "by the Holy Spirit"(your words) to " receive the proper and correct understanding that is intended"(your words). The RCC always told me not to "interpret" the scripture=" No re-interpretation via a untendable theory of man is required!" Trust us, the Magesterium! Trust the RCC, "the Holy Mother Church." Trust Dave, or trust what Dave "has always been taught".

    4. And just how are you able to convey to us what is "the proper and correct understanding that is is intended", without providing your "opinion"? Did the Holy Spirit "tap" you on the shoulder and say "No, Dave, they got it wrong. Here is what you tell everyone in these exact words what the 'intent' is of this passage. And don't bring loads and loads of your own interpretational commentary with it. And don't, even with the verses that I give you, filter all of them down by providing your own opinion of how it should be interpreted. Just give them my interpretation, word for word. So, are you ready to write down my intent? Perhaps, 'Thus saith the LORD through Dave?

    In Christ,
    John M. Whalen
     
  15. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    My response to Dave, part 2:

    "Interpretation" according to Dave

    There is no God(the premise-don't go off accusing me of pegging you as an atheist, as this merely serves as part of my argument)

    "No need for additional inserted commentary or persuasive external explanations."

    "....There is no God....."(Psalms 14:1)

    Again, "No need for additional inserted commentary or persuasive external explanations."

    Your post argues against my interpretation of the Holy Bible, and ridicules our "ignorant and unlearned"(Acts 4:13) efforts, despite hundreds of scriptures that command us, and ENCOURAGE US to study, meditate, learn , and yes interpret the Holy Bible, and this includes learning from others, who the Holy Spirit uses to help us understand the Holy Bible.

    "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" Nehemiah 8:8.

    Perhaps most know that I am a former Roman Catholic. Therefore, whenever I read a post that, in some way, contends that we need an infallible interpretation of the scripture, or implies that we are not to interpret it, or implies that the LORD God expects/demands such, or that some "expert" is so much smarter than me("let me set this guy straight" mindset-"I've never heard/been taught what he is teaching")an infallible understanding, my "radar" goes off, and I will respond.

    The following scriptures command us to search,read,and study the scriptures by rightly dividing the word of truth.: 2 Tim. 2:15, Is. 34:16, Jn 5:39,Job 32:8,Psalms 119:34,73,125,169. This same God in scripture says in Proverbs 1:23 that He will through the Holy Spirit make understandable His words. These verses, and numerous others, tells us the Holy Spirit will enable me to understand and interpret doctrine, and to discern truth from error:proverbs 2:36, 2 Tim. 2:7,1 Thel 2:13, Eph. 5:17. If someone says I cannot understand scripture, they are calling God a liar. They do not have a problem with me, they have a problem with God's word that says I can understand, and I suggest they take it up with Him.

    "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4

    "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we MIGHT KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor. 2:12-13

    "For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or ACKNOWLEDGE; and I trust ye shall ACKNOWLEDGE even to the end..." 2 Cor. 1:13

    "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth UNDERSTANDING UNTO THE SIMPLE." Psalms 119:160

    The Lord Jesus Christ expected the people to read and understand the Scriptures. He said "search the scriptures", "Have you not read", "Is it not written in your law"......These all demonstrate that people were expected to read and interpret scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ continually quoted scripture as the final source of authority, and demonstrated the consequences of failure to do this-"Ye do error, not KNOWING the scriptures...".

    Thus, the "childish" behaviour of those who portray themselves as "experts" with such statements as:

    "must bring loads and loads of its own interpretational commentary with it, and even with the verses that does give, must filter all of them down by providing its opinion of how it should be interpretted."/ " a untendable theory of man is required!"

    Translation: Only I, Dave, and what I have been taught by (fill in the blank) has the ability to interpret the word of God, and any disagreement with my doctrine is obviously wrong ="You can play, but only if you accept that I am the only one who is right."

    And Dave argues with statements like "when the Word of God alone is used to answer questions by using the Scriptures alone", despite the fact that personal interpretation is unavoidable(assuming everyone is fallible), and despite the fact that he confusions revelation with illumination(interpretation), i.e., revelation is the objective revealing of God's inspired words infallibly, while illumination deals with understanding(interpreting) the Holy Bible through the Holy Spirit, and this understanding is sometimes/many times/most of the time(!) fallible.

    Dave's premise is the following, as witnessed by the statement "receive the proper and correct understanding(infallible=everyone agrees=no room for differences in interpreting) that is intended(despite the fact that intended, by definition, is a subjective term, decided by each fallible human being). No re-interpretation(this assumes that scripture's intent is given by inspiration, which is a false premise-the words are given by inspiration, not "God's intent", nor God's "interpretation,since intent is subjective, while revelation(words) are objective) via a untendable theory of man is required! This "begs the question: If the correct interpretation of truth is contained only in scripture, only one "proper" interpretation, then we will both come to the same conclusion right?"

    That is faulty logic. Let me explain why.

    This is flawed logic for this reason. For some unknown reason, in the spiritual realm, as opposed to the physical realm, people(and I assume this includes you by your line of reasoning) believe that unless you have absolute, total, infallibility("without error") about all things, you have no certainty about anything. According to this view , if you do not claim to know all truth in every detail, you do not know truth at all. This is absurd. It's like saying, If you do not know geometry, you cannot add or subtract. It's like saying, if you do not know statistics, I do not know how likely an "Ace" will come my way in a game of poker! I can be certain 1+1=2, even if I "don't know squat" about "Pie r squared" is the formula for the area of a circle. And I know if 4 "Aces" are "already on the table", the chances of me getting an "Ace" is zero, even if I have no clue what a "standard deviation" is! It is possible to know something truly without knowing it exhaustively. I can have certainty borne of true knowledge without having an absolute certainty based on exhaustive knowledge.

    I know the basics of why an airplane flies(thrust, lift....), but I cannot answer all the myriad of questions about why it flies. Thus, I have true but limited knowledge of why an airplane flies. But this limited knowledge does not necessitate that I cannot know why the plane flies, nor does it mean I cannot know that it will take me to my destination.

    In the spiritual realm, I have a true but limited knowledge of the LORD God. This is inherent in that both you and I are fallible creatures., and we will never ever posses such knowledge, or we would be God! Only God has complete and exhaustive knowledge of God. But just because my knowledge of God is limited and not exhaustive, it does not follow that I have no knowledge of God at all. Neither I nor you have an exhaustive knowledge of everything that scripture says about God. Does this mean that you and I have no knowledge about God at all? No-you and I both have a true knowledge of God BASED ON THE SCRIPTURE, but our knowledge is limited.

    Thus, both your and my knowledge is limited and fallible. Thus, we both may make errors about conclusions we have come to simply because we do not have all the facts. But when you here the phrase "This is my interpretation based on right division", you immediately cry "Dispensationalism simply cannot stand when the Word of God alone is used to answer questions by using the Scriptures alone.", we need an infallible authority " by using the Scriptures alone"!

    But consider this: God created us as limited, fallible creatures. He entrusted His Word to us fallible creatures. Do you think He is surprised that us fallible, fallen human beings end up "disagreeing" over what His Word says? No!

    And this is where He commands every one of us fallible creatures in His Word to "Search the scriptures"(John 5:39, and to "...prove all things: hold fast to that which is good"(1 Thel. 5:21), and to "rightly divide"(2 Tim. 2:15) this Holy Bible. The LORD God holds each one of us, according to His Word, responsible for what we believe and why. That is scripture's testimony. Saying "my priest/my pastor/my reverand/my psychic hotline"/what I have always been taught won't "cut the mustard", nor will saying "nobody taught me right division, therefore it is a wrong interpretation" excuse you from shame(2 Tim. 2:15) at the judgment seat of Christ(the "reward ceremony" for believers).

    You may say this results in "300,000 interpretations". But you misunderstood God's instructions. God has not done away with "the Church's role"- believers are the Church! God has provided, in his Word, the means by which we are to learn. We are to learn from reading the Word, listening to others, and from pastors, teachers, and preachers-all members of the Church, the Body of Christ. However, when developing doctrine to learn, the scriptures themselves provide the boundaries. The Bible speaks to holding fast to sound doctrine, and of testing everything by the ultimate authority of the scriptures; but testing, by its very nature, is done by fallible human beings, not some external interpreting authority, and testing does result in conflicting results many times.

    But God is clear in His Word that both you and I are to be personally responsible before Him for what we believe and why-no "passing the buck". We are learn from others, seek the wisdom, counseling, and teaching of others, but the "bottom line" is that nobody can blame anyone else for the outcome.

    This concept, then, has the following outcome:First, we need not seek or expect to find absolute certainty on all things pertaining to God in this brief existence here on earth. Secondly, the scriptures are the sufficient source of truth. Thirdly, we are to interpret the Holy Bible, if its own testimony is to be believed, and this interpretation is fallible.

    The conclusion of the preceding is the following: The search for infallibility on everything is doomed to failure, including interpretation, anyone's claims notwithstanding. This is because both you and I are fallible creatures. But the LORD God does not call us to exhaustive knowledge of everything! He calls us to be serious students(look at how many times we are urged in the Bible to meditate and study) of His Word. The assurance, the certainty we have is not exhaustive, absolute-but God never promised exhaustive, absolute certainty. He has promised us solid, hopeful(biblically hope means "confident expectation") certainty, and this comes from repeated exposure to the truth as contained in His Word.

    In Christ,

    John Whalen

     
  16. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    Aint that the truth???? AAAAaaamen. I know that alot of what I did and thot will be burned up, I just hope the smell of smoke doesn't take away from those times I did take Him at His Word and didn't let pride keep me from putting aside preconceived ideas of "churchianity" and "religiousity". I want Him to say, "well done thy good and faithful servant."
     
  17. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    ____

    QUOTE=Ebb]Then why did Paul baptize Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus?






    13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. I Corinthians 1:13-16 ​



    ______
    My comment:

    1. My post was directed at the issue of priests in this dispensation. I layed out my argument(and also noting that this was not meant to be an in-depth study on the subject of baptism) as to why we are not a kingdom of priests in this dispensation. Before a profitable discussion can develop, I need to know if you understand the meaning/concept of baptism. If you do not, this will be unprofitable. If you would like to continue, perhaps another thread on baptism would be appropriate. I leave you with the following question, so as I can glean your grasp of the fundamental idea behind the term "baptism":

    Where is the water here?:

    " But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22,23

    "And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38,39

    "And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50

    ""And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...." 1 Cor. 10:2
    ("dry ground" Exodus 14:16

    "dry land" Exodus 14:21, 14:29, 15:19

    "dry ground" Exodus 14:22)

    The Lord Jesus Christ baptizing with the Holy Spirit(notice the Lord Jesus Christ is the "baptizer"): Matt. 3:11, Mark 1:8; Lk 3;16; Jn;33; Acts 1;4,5; Acts 11;15,16.
    [​IMG]



    ""This is clearly refuted in Revelation 5:9-10 and the other passages below. The priests are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9-10 "



    My comment: And who is the "they", "us" here? These are priests, but you presume "they", "us" refers to members of the Body Of Christ. Wrong premise, therefore wrong conclusion. These are Jews scattered=the dispersia.


    "5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. I Peter 2:5"

    My comment: And who is Peter talking to here? Who is ""Ye"? To "the strangers scattered throughout"(1:1)=the dispersia=Jews(bold is my emphasis):

    "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me." Lev. 25:23

    The body of Christ in view in Leviticus?

    "Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were." Psalms 39:12

    And who are the fathers? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob....perhaps? Are they members of the body of Christ? Is David a member of the body of Christ, who wrote the psalm?

    "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." HEBREWS(to whom?) 11:13

    And who are "These"? Members of the body of Christ?n


    "5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:5-6

    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6"

    My comment:
    And who are the "us"? The Body of Christ? Look who Revelation is directed towards-"servants"=the Jews in the Tribulation. I will not be here for that.

    In Christ,
    John M. Whalen





     
  18. Ebb

    Ebb Active Member

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    This is the first I've heard that Revelation 5:9-10 does not refer to the Church. Who do you think the great multitude and the 24 elders are representative of? Are the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 part of the Body of Christ?
     
  19. eph3Nine

    eph3Nine Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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    None of Revelation has to do with the Body of Christ. We are long gone by this time. Hebrews thru Revelation all has to do with Gods RESUMPTION of His program with the nation ISRAEL (Eph 2:7) and "Ages to COME".

    Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    ONLY the nation Israel has kings and priests...and ONLY the nation Israel will reign on the EARTH. This isnt speaking of The Body of Christ at ALL....but by identifying the key phrases and names used by GOD to describe ISRAEL, and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth as God does...tis very simple to see who is being addressed here. The Body of Christ has to be taken UP to meet her Lord in the AIR before these things in Revelation can take place.

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. This is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ to the EARTH, and referring to those who pierced him (the Jews), also every eye shall SEE him...in the rapture the world doesnt SEE His coming for the Body of Christ.

    See how mixing the programs that God said to KEEP SEPARATE is confusing?????
     
  20. JMWHALEN

    JMWHALEN Senior Member

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    1. Your premise is incorrect, i.e., there is only one "the church". See the thread on this issue. And thus: wrong premise, wrong conclusion. You are commanded to rightly divide this Holy Bible.

    2. There are only 2 ways to meet the Lord Jesus Christ: in either redemption or judgement. The book of Revelation concerns itself with the judgment of those who are not redeemed I assume that you are redeemed. Is that you in Revelation? It surely is not I-see below.

    Sometimes(most of the time!) we rebellious creatures(and I include myself in that category) overlook the obvious. "Gospel" means "good news", and "news", by its very definition, is that which has already happened! Good news! The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the resurrection(1 Cor. 15:1-4) is truly good news! We are redeemed! Praise the LORD God, and His Christ, for this gift! The judgment as described in Revelation surely is not good news.

    Given that we are in the Christmas season, why is it that when we give a gift to another, we do not expect a return favor for this gift, but , when the LORD God provides us a gift in the person and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ, we ask "What do I have to 'do' to obtain this gift?" How many of us on the December 25 morning will ask a person who gives us a gift : "Thank you. Now, how much do I owe you for this gift? " Would you be insulted if someone respond in this manner to you? How much more so is this insulting to the greatest giver, "... the God of all grace"(1 Peter 5:10)?

    "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..." Romans 3:24

    Ebb, this is good news! Rejoice and thank the LORD God that He already took care of the sin issue 2000 years ago! The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ is many things to many people, but what it is not is a lesson on tolerance for sin. The courtroom met 2000 years ago, sin was judged in the person of this great Saviour of ours, the only Saviour, all sins were forgiven for those who accept this gift of redemption, and justice was served. Those who have accepted this great gift now have "...the righteousness of God in him..."(2 Cor. 5:21)=not guilty! Good news! If the LORD God were to judge you again(Revelation), He would not have subjected His only begotten Son to the ordeal of Calvary, and would be communicating that the Lord Jesus Christ's work was unsatisfactory. We humans cry "No double jeopardy!", and yet blaspheme a Holy LORD God , and His justice, by shouting "Put me on trial again!" We shout "how much do I owe you!" Yes, like Adam of old, we "hide" ourselves in the nakedness of our continued guilt(Genesis 3:7-10), cover ourselves in our own "fig leaves of self righteousness"(Gen. 3:7),and like Cain of old, we present "...the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD ..."(Genesis 4:4-"works"), and despise "...the Spirit of grace...."(Hebrews 10:29).

    3. Again, our (the Body of Christ) eternal destination is heaven, not the earth (2 Corinthians 5:1, Ephesians 1:3-11, 2:6, Philippians 3:20, Colossians 3:1,2; 2 Timothy 4:18, 1 Corinthians 6:3).

    Israel's eternal destination is earth, not heaven. God promised Israel a literal, physical, visible, earthly, Davidic, Messianic kingdom, with Jesus Christ as the king of kings, ruling over the twelve apostles, who would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, who rule over the nations of this earth. - Genesis 12:7, 13:14-17, 17:8, Numbers 33:50-56, Deuteronomy 6:23, 11:21, Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 23:5, Psalm 37:9-11, Matthew 5:5, Matthew 6:10.

    The Great Tribulation is centered on earth, it's focus being apostate Israel and the unbelieving nations, not the Body of Christ, which was a mystery that was not in existence until the Lord Jesus Christ revealed it to Paul progressively.

    The Rapture will conclude this "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), and you will only find it in the Pauline epistles-it was a mystery, so forget about looking for it in the OT. The Rapture is a part of the secret mystery revealed through Paul for believers in this dispensation of grace. We are not told to look for the anti-Christ, or the "abomination of desolation", but for the Lord's deliverance of us out of this present evil world(Gal. 1:4), for "that blessed hope"(Titus 2:13), and to "wait for his Son from heaven"(1 Thes. 1:10) prior to the LORD's wrath on this Christ-rejecting world.

    I generally find those who expect to go through the Great Tribulation, the modern day "Rambos", usually either do not understand the purpose of the cross, and correspondingly, the purpose of the Great Tribulation. I typically hear such verses as "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God"(Acts 14:22), as proof texts that believers will go through the Great Trib. Granted, all believers are promised general tribulation in this life in terms of suffering,(Romans 5:3,8:35; 12:12; 2 Cor. 1:4, 7:4, 12:10; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thes. 3:3....). However, believers in this dispensation are promised deliverance from "wrath"(Romans 5:9) "to come"(1 Thes. 1:10), for "God hath not appointed us to wrath"(1 Thes. 5:9)-the 7 year Tribulation.. This wrath is "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to the same time: and at that time thy people"(Daniel 12:1-Israel, not the Body of Christ), for "there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it"(Joel 2:2), as depicted in Exodus 11:6, "none like it", and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ in Mt. 24:21.

    I will not participate in the Great Trib. as outlined in Revelation(and other scripture)-you can stay, but I will not be here. The purpose of Daniel's 70th week of years is for "Jacob's trouble", and is stated in simple, 5th grade English to be for Israel: Jer. 30:7, Daniel 9:20-25, and unbelievers: 1 Thes. 1:8, 2:12, not believers, whose sin(singular) has already been judged at Calvary(Romans 8:3-"condemned sin in the flesh"), whose sins were completely forgiven at Calvary(Romans 4:5-8;Eph. 1:7,4:32; Col. 1:14, 2:13,3:13), and who have been justified by the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection as proof(Romans 4:25,5:10).

    The reasons for the Trib. are for God to exercise His wrath on a predominantly Christ-rejecting world, to exercise wrath on Satan, and to prepare the remnant of Israel(including Gentile proselytes) for it's promised King, the Lord Jesus Christ, and earthly kingdom(Deut, 4:29-30, 11:21; Jer. 30:3-11;Zech. 12:10). Just as the Lord Jesus Christ's physical body and spirit suffered the wrath of His heavenly Father for us ONCE, and no more, his spiritual body in this dispensation will likewise not suffer the magnitude of the suffering that awaits in the Great Trib. 2000 years ago this great Saviour already experienced this in our stead=in our place.

    When reading writings regarding prophecy, always remember that direct rapture passages occur only in the Pauline books of the Holy Bible-it is a mystery you will not find in the OT-it was "...hid in God...."(Eph. 3:2), not in the OT scriptures, so FORGET ABOUT LOOKING FOR IT IN THE OT. All references to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ are referring to His second coming to judge/save ISRAEL, and to judge the nations in unbelief. Just as Moses was the primary revelator to Israel under "the law", program, so Paul is our apostle(Rom. 6:14,11:13; 2 Cor. 5:16; Gal. 2:8, 5:18; Eph. 3:2; 2 Tim. 3:8-10).

    4. I am not on these boards to "duel", but to argue(which is good!) and persuade, and yes, debate. After all, this is "serious business"-eternal souls are at stake. I cannot speak for others, but my motivation is not to "win" a debate, but to convey/communicate the truth of the Holy Bible rightly divided.. I hope you understand, that, it would be "easy", and "comfortable", to just sit back in my "Eazy Boy recliner", smile, wink, and embrace the attitude "So what, that is just his opinion. I'm saved, why should I subject myself to the criticism that inevitably results from such an en devour?"

    And my answer: I have no choice, for I am an "...ambassador for Christ..."(2 Cor. 5:20), and thus have been given a charge, and have been given the honor, of representing the true "Commander-In-Chief", the Lord Jesus Christ in "...the ministry of reconciliation..."(2 Cor. 5:18) in "enemy territory", which is "...this present evil world..."(Galatians 1:4). And included in this charge is the LORD God's desire for you to see the mystery:

    "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery(emphasis mine), which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ...." Ephesians 3:9

    "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"(emphasis mine). 1 Timothy 2:3,4 The "knowledge of the truth", here, in the context of the passage, is knowing the mystery.

    In Christ,

    John M. Whalen
     
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