Which would you choose as the First Fruits/Wave Sheaf...

[visionary]

....in this instance??

In years in which the first day of Unleavened Bread falls on a Sunday and ends on Saturday (as happened in 2015), there are two schools of thought on when the day of Firstfruits should be.

Which "Sabbath" do we take the morrow of? The Sabbath the day before the start of the week of Unleavened Bread, or the following Sabbath which makes the day of Firstfruits not fall within the week of Unleavened Bread? Because I believe that the day of Firstfruits must fall within the week of Unleavened Bread, I tend to agree with the first interpretation but am not hardlined on this point.... Your thoughts on this should be interesting and informative.

 

[Ken Rank]

....in this instance??

In years in which the first day of Unleavened Bread falls on a Sunday and ends on Saturday (as happened in 2015), there are two schools of thought on when the day of Firstfruits should be.

Which "Sabbath" do we take the morrow of? The Sabbath the day before the start of the week of Unleavened Bread, or the following Sabbath which makes the day of Firstfruits not fall within the week of Unleavened Bread? Because I believe that the day of Firstfruits must fall within the week of Unleavened Bread, I tend to agree with the first interpretation but am not hardlined on this point.... Your thoughts on this should be interesting and informative.

I wrote a longer post and got into some things that I decided were better to avoid. So I will say it this way....

On this I disagree with my Jewish brothers. The first and last day of Unleavened Bread are treated like Sabbaths (rightly so) but are not specifically called a Sabbath in the Hebrew text.

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.
Lev 23:8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.' "

So we have a holy gathering and no customary work, as we would expect to see on a weekly Sabbath (although work related to the feast is seemingly allowed) but the day is not specifically called a Sabbath. So when we see this...

Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

We DO have the word shabbat (in Hebrew) present (as haShabbat - the Sabbath) which should then be pointing at the weekly Sabbath since it was specifically called Shabbat. The first and last days of ULB are not called that in the text... therefore, the count toward Shavuot should start the day after the weekly Sabbath.

Again, I realize this is against the Jewish view and I am not looking to argue. Ultimately, I don't care what day it falls on, I just desire to do it as God intends and while I respect my Jewish brothers, I place my trust first in the text. And the text doesn't use "shabbat" with the first day of ULB.

Since Yeshua is the first fruits of the resurrection, and since he rose on the 1st day (before sunrise but long after sunset on what we call Saturday night) then we seem to have confirmation that ties the day to the day after the Sabbath. Shavuot should always fall on a Sunday or 1st day, IMHO.

 

[visionary]

I wrote a longer post and got into some things that I decided were better to avoid. So I will say it this way....

On this I disagree with my Jewish brothers. The first and last day of Unleavened Bread are treated like Sabbaths (rightly so) but are not specifically called a Sabbath in the Hebrew text.

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.
Lev 23:8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.' "

So we have a holy gathering and no customary work, as we would expect to see on a weekly Sabbath (although work related to the feast is seemingly allowed) but the day is not specifically called a Sabbath. So when we see this...

Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

We DO have the word shabbat (in Hebrew) present (as haShabbat - the Sabbath) which should then be pointing at the weekly Sabbath since it was specifically called Shabbat. The first and last days of ULB are not called that in the text... therefore, the count toward Shavuot should start the day after the weekly Sabbath.

Again, I realize this is against the Jewish view and I am not looking to argue. Ultimately, I don't care what day it falls on, I just desire to do it as God intends and while I respect my Jewish brothers, I place my trust first in the text. And the text doesn't use "shabbat" with the first day of ULB.

Since Yeshua is the first fruits of the resurrection, and since he rose on the 1st day (before sunrise but long after sunset on what we call Saturday night) then we seem to have confirmation that ties the day to the day after the Sabbath. Shavuot should always fall on a Sunday or 1st day, IMHO.

I am not in disagreement with what you have stated. But this thread is dedicated to those times when the feast of Unleavened Bread starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday and thus the dilemma of when is First Fruits ... two school of thought, one is the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread which in this case would put it on Monday.... the other is the last day of Unleavened Bread which is Saturday which would put First Fruits outside of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and on Sunday.

 

[Ken Rank]

I am not in disagreement with what you have stated. But this thread is dedicated to those times when the feast of Unleavened Bread starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday and thus the dilemma of when is First Fruits ... two school of thought, one is the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread which in this case would put it on Monday.... the other is the last day of Unleavened Bread which is Saturday which would put First Fruits outside of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and on Sunday.

I understand... but even when ending on a Saturday, it is Saturday night... it is a 7 day feast which means there is one weekly Sabbath, even if it is the last day. And if the last day, it is still within the week of ULB which still means you count from then. That is, in part, why I went through the explanation. There is always a weekly Shabbat in the week of ULB. If we go by the Hebrew text, the day after it is the day you ask about.

 

[Hank77]

nm

 

[Ken Rank]

nm

Am I missing something?

 

[Hank77]

I am not in disagreement with what you have stated. But this thread is dedicated to those times when the feast of Unleavened Bread starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday and thus the dilemma of when is First Fruits ... two school of thought, one is the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread which in this case would put it on Monday.... the other is the last day of Unleavened Bread which is Saturday which would put First Fruits outside of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and on Sunday.

Maybe this article will help you, it did me as I was tying Yeshua to each of the holy days and feasts in the Torah, especially the scriptures about the first Passover.
The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

 

[Hank77]

Am I missing something?

lol. I have to be careful because I am not technically Messianic so I can't say much. I posted a great site I think clearly straightens the dates out using only scripture.
Hope it helps. God bless.

The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

 

[visionary]

I understand... but even when ending on a Saturday, it is Saturday night... it is a 7 day feast which means there is one weekly Sabbath, even if it is the last day. And if the last day, it is still within the week of ULB which still means you count from then. That is, in part, why I went through the explanation. There is always a weekly Shabbat in the week of ULB. If we go by the Hebrew text, the day after it is the day you ask about.

I am in agreement.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Maybe this article will help you, it did me as I was tying Yeshua to each of the holy days and feasts in the Torah, especially the scriptures about the first Passover.
The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

Nehemia is a Karaite, so yes, that would be his view. Also remember that the month is called Aviv, which has to do with the ripening of the barley. The first fruits of the barley is what was offered on Yom HaBikkurim.

 

[Ken Rank]

lol. I have to be careful because I am not technically Messianic so I can't say much. I posted a great site I think clearly straightens the dates out using only scripture.
Hope it helps. God bless.

The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

Thanks Hank. What I know of Nehemiah I personally have nothing against. But there are some claims of anti-missionary type activities. I don't believe the accounts but they are out there and seeing he does take an open position against Yeshua as being messiah, just be careful. If I have a beef, it is that he claims to not follow the Talmud and then is the one many non-Jewish messianics wait on to give a barley sighting, which is an action that comes out of the Talmud. I don't care... by the way... I just find that odd.

In looking over his article he makes the same point I made above, I just used the Hebrew we have and he added in the DSS. He did bring up the Sadducees and that is probably a good thing to do. Since they were the priests and in charge of the calendar, what they did in the first century should carry some weight for us.

 

[Hank77]

Nehemia is a Karaite, so yes, that would be his view. Also remember that the month is called Aviv, which has to do with the ripening of the barley. The first fruits of the barley is what was offered on Yom HaBikkurim.

Yes, I remember Aviv and the barley's connection to the timing of Feast of Unleavened Bread. Thanks

 

[Hank77]

If I have a beef, it is that he claims to not follow the Talmud and then is the one many non-Jewish messianics wait on to give a barley sighting, which is an action that comes out of the Talmud. I don't care... by the way... I just find that odd.

Yes, the Aviv. This article helped me understand where the Aviv, and the sighting of Aviv, comes from in scripture.
Aviv Barley in the Biblical Calendar - Nehemia's Wall

Oh and thanks for the warning. I realize that he is Jewish and not messianic.
He was raised Orthodox Judaism. His father, grand-father.....were all rabbis.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, the Aviv. This article helped me understand where the Aviv, and the sighting of Aviv, comes from in scripture.
Aviv Barley in the Biblical Calendar - Nehemia's Wall

Oh and thanks for the warning. I realize that he is Jewish and not messianic.
He was raised Orthodox Judaism. His father, grand-father.....were all rabbis.

Actually, by my definition he is messianic... he just isn't messianic. What I mean is... he might not see that Yeshua has come before... but like most practicing Jews, they are waiting for messiah to come. In that sense, he is messianic.

We know him well, I exist in a realm where some close congregations I know have him come speak once or twice a year. Decent guy, just don't take anything for granted.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, I remember Aviv and the barley's connection to the timing of Feast of Unleavened Bread. Thanks

Just throwing this in.... Avib means young ear of grain, and it is the name of the month that barley usually is ready at. But Aviv can also mean springtime... again, because the crop is ready in the spring. What I am saying is, the word isn't always as specific as some treat it as.

 

[AbbaLove]

What I am saying is, the word isn't always as specific as some treat it as.

Especially true (even more so) to say a Messianic non-Jew just learning about the Jewish Roots of Christianity in comparison to the Jewish Karaite community in Israel keeping a watchful eye on whether or not the barley will be far enough along by Abib 14 ... Karaite Korner - Abib FAQ

On March 10, 2016, it was decided that a 13th month being Abib II should be added to the Jewish calendar as the barley was still too green for what would have been Firstfruit sheaves brought to Jerusalem (ancient times) in two weeks (Abib 14) for the High Priest to wave a Firstfruits sheaf on the 17th signifying the beginning of the barley harvest in Israel ...

“Proclaiming a Leap Year of Faith” was the title of the message sent out by Nehemia Gordon of the Karaite community in Jerusalem after his team concluded that barley in Israel was not yet ripe enough when the new moon was sighted on March 10, indicating the need for a 13th month ...​

The Torah calls this month: "The First Month" (Hodesh HaRishon) in reference to it as "Month of the Abib" (Hodesh Ha'Abib). The name Abib/Aviv signifies the month that the barley will be ripe enough for harvest in two weeks, Abib 14. However a 13th month (Abib II) has to be added (7 times in 19 years) since the barley won't be ripe enough for harvest by two weeks into Abib I.

So, you may ask what if the barley is ready for harvest by the end of the month of Abib I? Because the Jewish months don't begin until the sighting of the new moon the Firstfruits of the barley harvest aren't waved by the High Priest until the 17th of Abib II. Nisan/Nissan is the name adapted by Israel during their lengthy exile and exposure to Babylonian culture.

 

[Ken Rank]

​

Especially true (even more so) to say a Messianic non-Jew just learning about the Jewish Roots of Christianity in comparison to the Jewish Karaite community in Israel keeping a watchful eye on whether or not the barley will be far enough along by Abib 14 ... Karaite Korner - Abib FAQ

On March 10, 2016, it was decided that a 13th month being Abib II should be added to the Jewish calendar as the barley was still too green for what would have been Firstfruit sheaves brought to Jerusalem (ancient times) in two weeks (Abib 14) for the High Priest to wave a Firstfruits sheaf on the 17th signifying the beginning of the barley harvest in Israel ...

“Proclaiming a Leap Year of Faith” was the title of the message sent out by Nehemia Gordon of the Karaite community in Jerusalem after his team concluded that barley in Israel was not yet ripe enough when the new moon was sighted on March 10, indicating the need for a 13th month ...​

The Torah calls this month: "The First Month" (Hodesh HaRishon) in reference to it as "Month of the Abib" (Hodesh Ha'Abib). The name Abib/Aviv signifies the month that the barley will be ripe enough for harvest in two weeks, Abib 14. However a 13th month (Abib II) has to be added (7 times in 19 years) since the barley won't be ripe enough for harvest by two weeks into Abib I.

So, you may ask what if the barley is ready for harvest by the end of the month of Abib I? Because the Jewish months don't begin until the sighting of the new moon the Firstfruits of the barley harvest aren't waved by the High Priest until the 17th of Abib II. Nisan/Nissan is the name adapted by Israel during their lengthy exile and exposure to Babylonian culture.

There have been years, not many but there have been years, when various issues have wiped out the barley crop. That said, I don't care how people reckon a calendar... that is between them and God. Personally, we use the Hebrew calendar because we are in the nations, under secular rule, and this gives those who seek to join with us for the feasts the opportunity to get off from work and so forth. Also, using the Hebrew calendar gives us something in common with most of the practicing Jewish people.

That said, if I were to be strict on this, and I am not... but if I were I would point out that Genesis 1:14 says the luminaries were set in place to determine the moedim, there is no mention of a crop. In fact, there really is no command anywhere that says the calendar is determined by a crop. We might need a certain crop (like that which this thread is based on) but there is nothing that says the calendar hangs on a crop. It hangs, on the celestial bodies God placed in the heavens to be used as a clock to determine time. Again... I am not strict... we all have error and doing it wrong (which might be me, not you) is better than not doing it at all. At least I (we) are trying.

 

[AbbaLove]

There have been years, not many but there have been years, when various issues have wiped out the barley crop.

Did you just learn that by googling? Apparently you weren't aware that Hebrews/Jews were not at a loss if and when such an event might happen. Also YHVH made sure there was always enough barley in Israel for a Firstfruits wave offering when Israel was obedient and at rest from enemy incursions.

Apparently you weren't aware that the ancient Hebrews/Jews added an extra month (on average) 7 times every 19 Hebrew/Jewish years. Perhaps, as an urbanite you don't think farmers were smart enough to know by the previous year that the barley crop was a few days late in ripening to the point that it was about time to add an extra month (Abib II) to their calendar the following year. Well, you might say, "Why didn't those Jews just add an extra month every 3 years instead of on average 7 times every 19 years?"

It's reassuring to know that the Messianic Judaism movement wouldn't be on their toes without non-Jewish Christians and the Mother Church to oversee MJs about their culture and what they think is the correct interpretation of the Hebrew/Jewish Holy Bible. Thanks for your insightful posts.

 

[Ken Rank]

​

Did you just learn that by googling? Apparently you weren't aware that Hebrews/Jews were not at a loss if and when such an event might happen. Also YHVH made sure there was always enough barley in Israel for a Firstfruits wave offering when Israel was obedient and at rest from enemy incursions.

Apparently you weren't aware that the ancient Hebrews/Jews added an extra month (on average) 7 times every 19 Hebrew/Jewish years. Perhaps, as an urbanite you don't think farmers were smart enough to know by the previous year that the barley crop was a few days late in ripening to the point that it was about time to add an extra month (Abib II) to their calendar the following year. Well, you might say, "Why didn't those Jews just add an extra month every 3 years instead of on average 7 times every 19 years?"

It's reassuring to know that the Messianic Judaism movement wouldn't be on their toes without non-Jewish Christians and the Mother Church to oversee MJs about their culture and what they think is the correct interpretation of the Hebrew/Jewish Holy Bible. Thanks for your insightful posts.

Wow, aren't you pleasant. SMH .... you're ignored. Have a nice life Abba "love"

 

[visionary]

Does anyone know why the Jews quit keeping the Feast of First fruits/Wave Sheaf?