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Featured LDS Which Mormons Will Be Forgiven?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Jul 13, 2018.

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  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Caution: Exercise caution while discussing the doctrine of having our calling and election made sure. Avoid speculation. Use only the sources given here and in the student manual. Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing.
    https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-19?lang=eng

    Although the process of obtaining exaltation continues even into the spirit world, the knowledge that one will become exalted with the privileges of continuing on to eternal life can be certain in this life. This is what making one’s calling and election sure is all about...

    “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (D&C 131:5.)

    As expressed by Elder Bruce R. McConkie:
    “To have one’s calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with his ‘Father in his throne.’ (Rev. 3:21.) (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Bookcraft, 1973, 3:330–31.)...

    When faith is sufficient to sacrifice all earthly things, even life itself if necessary, it is possible for a person to know that he is accepted of the Lord for what he has done, and with this strong faith he may eventually receive eternal life.
    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/...aking-your-calling-and-election-sure?lang=eng

    The second annointing is done in the temple. But even that isn't an unconditional guarantee!
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Where does the idea that murder is unforgiveable come from? Or is it that it is forgiven but denies you into the presence of God?
     
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Doctrine and Covenants 132
    38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

    39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallenfrom his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.39?lang=eng#38

    Only couples with temple marriages or [temple]sealed marriages can be with Heavenly Father.
     
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Which means that Moses can not be with heavenly Father either? But what about murder--is that forgivable or not?? Moses and David both murdered. Doesn't that keep one from being able enter the temple?
     
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I think you know by now that Mormonism contradicts itself.

    D&C 42
    18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

    But in 1994, this was shared:

    Further, murderers place themselves in a position where it is impossible to ask forgiveness of the one sinned against or to make restitution—at least in this life. So grievous is the act that the Prophet Joseph Smith said murderers “cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing.”2
    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/08/thou-shalt-not-kill?lang=eng

    Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15). Telestial inhabitants as innumerable as the stars will come forth in the last resurrection and then be "servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come" (D&C 76:112). Although the least of the degrees of glory, yet the Telestial Kingdom "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 76:89). [See also Degrees of Glory.] CLYDE J. WILLIAMS

    Nephi was commanded to slay Laban.

    Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy.

    The judgment against Laban is being received “by revelation,” and Nephi ultimately must slay Laban for the very reason which initially led him to shrink from it—so that he will not offend the divine “lawgiver.” (See D&C 98:23–32.)
    6. We realize, then, that the application of laws changes at the command of the lawgiver. Our only safety—and Nephi’s—is in knowing and obeying that Holy Spirit which whispers truth. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;’ at another time He said, ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. … Everything that God gives us is lawful and right.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 256.)

    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/09/...illing-laban-to-my-nonmember-friends?lang=eng

    I can't find anything on whether or not Moses will receive exaltation (eternal life).


    After his confrontation with Satan, Moses was filled with the Holy Ghost and heard the voice of the Lord. He learned that he was chosen to deliver Israel from bondage. He also beheld the earth and its inhabitants and learned the purpose of God’s many creations. Moses was then instructed to write God’s words concerning the Creation of the earth.
    https://www.lds.org/manual/old-test...book-of-moses/lesson-7-moses-1-24-42?lang=eng

    Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1
    24 And it came to pass that when Satan had departed from the presence of Moses, that Moses lifted up his eyes unto heaven, being filled with the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son;


    25 And calling upon the name of God, he beheld his glory again, for it was upon him; and he heard a voice, saying: Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters; for they shall obey thy command as if thou wert God.

    26 And lo, I am with thee, even unto the end of thy days; for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel my chosen.


    27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God.

    28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.

    29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.

    30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

    31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

    32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

    33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

    34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

    35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

    36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

    37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

    38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

    39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.

    41 And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.

    42 (These words were spoken unto Moses in the mount, the name of which shall not be known among the children of men. And now they are spoken unto you. Show them not unto any except them that believe. Even so. Amen.)
    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1.24-42?lang=eng#23

    Worthiness is required to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost which I think verse 24 is referring to.

    I'm sorry that is so lengthy. God help us. :praying:
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Yet--Moses was with Elijah at Christs transfiguration in His presence and speaking with Him. And

    31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses:

    And this was after he had murdered.
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Many people have killed during times of war etc. Not everyone who kills will be justified, but some will. It depends on the circumstances.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I think we know that the Bible contradicts itself also.

    (Old Testament | Genesis 26:5)

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    (Old Testament | Psalms 14:3)

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


    However we understand the true meanings of the Bible and LDS scriptures..
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Proverbs 14
    12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
     
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    All have sinned.

    Abraham's sin at Gerar (Genesis 20:1–18)
    1And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. 2And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 4But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

    8Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. 9Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. 10And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing? 11And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. 14And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. 15And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. 16And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.17So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. 18For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

    Abraham resorted to deception twice when he feared for his life. He didn't admit that Sarah was his wife. Withholding truth in order to deceive is the same as lying.


    Romans 4
    1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

    13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  11. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    NO it is NOT the same thing as lying, Abraham did NOT lie, neither did God lie about Abraham when He said:

    (Old Testament | Genesis 26:5)

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Do you really think that God was wrong about Abraham?

    (Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 2:22 - 25)

    22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;
    23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:
    24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.
    25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Moses? David?
     
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    That is one of the many things Mormons do not get---God forgives--and when He forgives--He forgets!!
    That is why God could say

    1Ki_3:14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

    David is forgiven by God for all His sins and will stand in the presence of God and His Son at the resurrection and for eternity!! Abraham was forgiven for his lies! n JS is wrong about murder keeping anyone from the presence of God if they have repented for if you repent and ask for forgiveness---God will forgive and wipe the slate clean. The only sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit---which Mormonism stand guilty of!!

    according to the bible, blasphemy:

    Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
    Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    A man claiming to be God---of which Jesus could not be quilty of for He was the Son of God.

    No one can enter into exaltation without the direct approval of JS---that is claiming a power thst belongs only to God.
    It is also to reject the Holy Spirit and remain unrepentant. Any sin that has not been repented of therefore can not be forgiven. For it is the Holy Spirit thst leads us unto all truth. To reject His truth in favor of what man says over what God has said through the bible is rejecting the Holy Spirit. It is the bible that reveals the character if God--that reveals Jesus. Which was basically the OT which never mentions anything about the believes of JS.

    Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    It was the OT scriptures Jesus referred to for there was no NT yet. Mormonism rejects what the scriptures that Jesus believed in, taught, and followed.

    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  14. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You didn't quote the next verse:
    (Old Testament | 1 Kings 3:15)

    15 And Solomon awoke; and, behold, it was a dream............

    However it is well known that David did walk in God's ways, keep His statutes and His commandments until the time he committed adultery with Bathsheba. Then he tried to cover up what he had done ultimately getting rid of Uriah.
     
  15. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying that Jesus is not God?
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No where in my statement did I say such a thing. I said quite the opposite, it was not blasphemy for Jesus to claim to be the Son of God, for He is and as such--He is God also. For a man to claim Godhead, than it is blasphemy.
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    And you did not read the previous verses..

    1Ki 3:5 In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee.

    This was said long after David was dead and buried. David and Abraham and anyone that asks is forgiven and their sins forgotten by God---including murder. JS was wrong---again.
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Abraham withheld truth because he was afraid. He misled Abimelech because he was afraid of dying.

    Genesis 20
    10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing? 11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. 14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. 15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. 16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. 18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.


    Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 2:22 - 25 is NOT God's word!


    God forgave Abraham.

    Romans 4
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


    Genesis 12
    Abram and Sarai in Egypt
    Same action there.



    God did not say that Abraham always obeyed. Genesis 26 is after Abraham's death and after he had put Isaac on the altar.
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The Bible does not say that everyone who asks for forgiveness will be forgiven:

    (New Testament | Romans 9:14 - 16)

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    (New Testament | Matthew 6:12)

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    (New Testament | Matthew 12:32)

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
     
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I will not take your word over God's words. Abraham was warned by God and told what he must do. That is what Abraham did.
     
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