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Which king married Esther?

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by David Kent, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Who was the king Ahaseurus who married Esther?
     
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  2. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Do you want to try and clarify your question?

    Who the king was is outlined in the first few verses of Esther 1:1-4
     
  3. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Gordon.
    Let me expand.
    Some suggestions as to the identity of Ahasuerus in the Book of Esther that I have come across and the problems that go with them.
    Ahasuerus in Daniel 9:1 but he was a Mede, In Esther he was a Persian. The law of the Medes and Persians in Daniel had changed to the Law of the Persians and Medes in Esther 1:19
    Cyrus. Josephus said the King's name was Cyrus, but the Greeks called him Artaxerxes. But Cyrus only ruled about 9 years. Ahasuerus reigned more than 12, Esther 3:7.
    Ahasuerus Ezra 4:6 (Cambyses) He only reigned about 7 or 8 years,
    Xerxes. This seems the most popular today. But Ahasuerus laid tribute on the Islands, after his 12th year, but Xerxes lost the Islands before his 12th year according to one ancient writer (I can't remember which one , I would have to look it up.) Also the age of Mordecai. By the time he was given the ring of Haman, he must have been at least 96.
     
  4. Pyong Ping

    Pyong Ping Member

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    He was Xerxes I the Great, the father of Artaxerxes I of Ezra 7. He is the 4th king to rule, who was far richer than they all of the previous kings in Daniel 11:2, after the reign of Cyrus - Daniel 10:1.

    Median

    1. Ahasuerus the Median - Daniel 9:1

    2. Darius the Median - Daniel 9:1

    Persian/Median

    1. (already ruling Daniel 10:1) Cyrus II the Persians, the Great - 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 - Ezra 1:1-2,7-8, 3:7, 4:3,5, 5:13-14,17, 6:3,14 - Isaiah 44:28, 45:1 - Daniel 1:21, 6:28, 10:1

    2. (yet 1) Ahasuerus (Cambyses II, son of Cyrus II) - Ezra 4:6

    3. (yet 2) Artaxerxes (usurper, False Smerdis, Pseudo Bardiya, Gaumata) - Ezra 4:7-24

    4. (yet 3) Darius I (son of) Hystaspes, the Persian (military officer under Cyrus II) - Ezra 4:24, 5:5-7, 6:1-22

    5. (4th far richer than they all*) Ahasuerus (Xerxes I the Great, son of Darius I Hystaspes) - Esther 1:1-10:3 (* inheriting Cyrus II campaign riches of Lydia, Babylon, and Cambyses II campaign into Egypt, the taxes of the usurper false Artaxerxes, and the riches under Darius I Hystapses rule, and so we see such riches in Esther 1, and the taxes upon the isles in Esther 10:1)

    6. Artaxerxes I Longimanus or Machrocheir (son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes I the Great)) - Ezra 7:1-28
     
  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Xerxes, hardly. Ahasuerus laid tribute on the Islands after his 12th year. Xerxes lost the islands before his 12 th year. It was Darius who laid tribute on the Islands. Herodotus gives the meaning of the names. Darius = Merchant. Xerxes = Warrior, Artaxerxes = Great Warrior. Artaxerxes was a title of most of the Persian kings, I believe the Greek translation.

    1 Ahasuerus the Mede - Daniel 9:1 = Astyages
    2. Darius the Median - Daniel 9:1 = Cyaxares Uncle of Cyrus

    2. (yet 1) Ahasuerus (Cambyses II, son of Cyrus II) - Ezra 4:6 agreed
    3. (yet 2) Artaxerxes (usurper, False Smerdis, Pseudo Bardiya, Gaumata) - Ezra 4:7-24 Only reigned 8 months (Herodotus)
    4. (yet 3) Darius I (son of) Hystaspes, the Persian (military officer under Cyrus II) - Ezra 4:24, 5:5-7, 6:1-22 Laid tribute on the islands
    5. (4th far richer than they all*) Ahasuerus (Xerxes I the Great, son of Darius I Hystaspes) - Esther 1:1-10:3 (* inheriting Cyrus II campaign riches of Lydia, Babylon, and Cambyses II campaign into Egypt, the taxes of the usurper false Artaxerxes, and the riches under Darius I Hystapses rule, and so we see such riches in Esther 1, and the taxes upon the isles in Esther 10:1) Not mentioned in Esther

    The bible only mentions 4 Persian kings, so do Herodotus and Xenophon.


    6. Artaxerxes I Longimanus or Machrocheir (son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes I the Great)) - Ezra 7:1-28
    If Artaxerxes Longimanus is the king in - Ezra 7:1-28. then there is about 80 years between Ezra 6 and Ezra 7. However if Darius is the king, there is only one year. If Darius laid tribute on the islands by his 6th year, he would have ceased becoming a merchant and become a great warrior.
     
  6. Pyong Ping

    Pyong Ping Member

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    Correct. All of Esther takes place between those two chapters.
     
  7. Pyong Ping

    Pyong Ping Member

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    Still was king, see scriptures already cited.

    Gaumata / Smerdis - Livius

    We can know that the “Artaxerxes” of Ezra 4:7, is not the true Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir of Ezra 7:1, simply because of the details of Ezra 4.

    This “Artaxerxes” (False Smerdis, Psedo Bardiya) (Ezra 4:7) gives a countermanding decree (Ezra 4:23,24) to Cyrus II decree, which according to the Law of the Mede-Persians, could not be altered, thus it was illegal, and was the reason why Darius I Hystaspes re-issued the decree of Cyrus II in Ezra 5 & 6; Daniel 6:8,12,15; Ezra 4:7-24.

    The taxation is mentioned in Esther, and it was cited.

    Esther 10:1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.

    Isles of the Sea are the Greeks, Javan (Genesis 10:2; Isaiah 66:19).

    The other campaigns (Cyrus II, Cambyses II), are seen in Isaiah 44:26-28; 45:1-3 and Daniel 8, 11, and elsewhere and in Esther 1:1, we see the counted increase of those territories, now being at 127, compared to the 120 in Daniel 6:1 in the time of Darius the Mede.

    The wealth of Xerxes, is mentioned in Esther 1:4 and throughout, and even mentions the switch in power between Media-Persia, to Persia-Media (Esther 1:3,14,18).

    Not so. It was just demonstrated from the original response, from the scripture itself. Scripture is the higher authority.

    Ptolemy's Canon is also useful though it places the year of False Smerdis under the reigns of the two kings surrounding him (since he was a usurping King) - Ptolemy's Canon - Livius

    This combined with Herodotus, Ctesias of Cnidus and the VAT-5047 Tablet, along with
    BM-32234 among the Saros Texts, and the
    BM-45674 and BM-32299 materials when combined astronomically, and the Elephantine Papyri, gives us exact dating on these kings, especially for Xerxes I and Artaxerxes I Longimanus and the 7th reignal year therein as given in Ezra 7.

    The Bible in Daniel 11, speaks of at least 5 (beginning with Cyrus II) followed by the "yet" 4, and in other places even mentions Darius II in Nehemiah 12:12, who came long after those. Daniel 11 is only concerned with those 5 Persian Kings, Cyrus II and the "yet" four immediately after him. Daniel 11 does not point at Artaxerxes I Longimanus, and after Xerxes stirs up the Greeks, then by passes the remaining Persian Kings and enters straight into Greece and Alexander III the Great of Macedon/Greece way down at the time of Darius III Codomanus of Persian who was defeated by Alexander.
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The bible mentions Cyrus and then the four and no others.
    Daniel 12 is recalling those who returned with Zerubabel in accordance with the decree of Cyrus and the Darius mentioned is Darius 1. You should note that Nehemiah was one of the leading Jews who returned with Zerubabal, he is listed with those in Exra, so he must have been at least 30. If Ataxerxes was the king under who Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem he must have been well over 100 when he rode around the wall, someone has estimated about 150.

    The same goes for Mordecai. I am assuming it was NOT Mordecai who was taken away by Nebuchadnezzar, as one preacher said recently, but his father or grandfather. He would still be a very old man by the time of Xerxes, when his sister's daughter, Esther was a very young girl, probably about 16 or 17.

    Cyrus was the king who published God's decree that the city and the temple should be rebuilt.
     
  9. Pyong Ping

    Pyong Ping Member

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    If you are speaking about Daniel 10-11, correct.

    If you mean the Bible in general, incorrect, as it cited several Persian kings beyond 4 and I cited those verses in regards to that.

    If you wanted the answer to your first and original OP question, you have it. Xerxes I.

    I am not absolutely sure why you are resisting the answer. However, it seems that it may be due to an incorrect understanding of certain texts in regards the names Mordecai, Ezra and Nehemiah. See below.

    Daniel 12 deals with the final events of the earth's history. For instance, the prophetic time period of Daniel 12:7, is given also in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5 and also combine Revelation 11:2 with Luke 21:24.

    42 months (30 x 12 x 3.5) =
    1,260 days =
    time, times & 1/2 time (1 + 2 + 1/2).

    They are all the exact same timeframe = 1,260 years (day for a year in prophecy, Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34).

    Again, in Daniel 12:2,12; Revelation 14:13 we see a mention of a special resurrection of both righteous and wicked that takes place just before the coming of Christ Jesus. That has not taken place.

    Michael standing up and the time of trouble such as never was has not taken place yet, for when Jesus stands, that is the signal of the end.

    Daniel 12:3 speaks about the transformation and glorification of the saints. That has not happened yet either.

    The 1,290 and 1,335 of Daniel 12:11,12 both began at the same time, as seen by the connection of the taking away of the daily (AD 508) in Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11.

    This seems to be your assumption. How do you prove that the Mordecai and Nehemiah in Ezra 2:1-2; Nehemiah 7:5-7 are the same persons as Mordecai in Esther, and the Nehemiah the cupbearer of Artaxerxes I?

    The various commentaries that are indepth, do not see them as the same persons, but differing persons with the same names as happens throughout the scripture quite often (Ahasuerus, Artaxerxes, Saul, etc)

    Notice two commentaries on this.

    "Nehemiah] is not “Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah” (Neh_1:1); Seraiah] is Azariah; Reelaiah] is Raamiah; Mizpar] is Mispereth; and Rehum] is Nehum, in Neh_7:7; Mordecai] not Mordecai the cousin and foster-parent of Esther (Est_2:7). The number of the men of the people of Israel] is “the special title of the first division (Ezr_2:3-35) of the following list, with which the titles in Ezr_2:36; Ezr_2:40; Ezr_2:43; Ezr_2:55 correspond. They are called ‘the people of Israel,’ not the people of Judah, because those who returned represented the entire covenant people.”—Keil."

    "but of whom nothing further is known, are placed here. 1. Nehemiah, to be distinguished from the well-known Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah, Neh_1:1; 2. Seraiah, instead of which we have in Neh_7:7 Azariah; 3. Reeliah, in Nehemiah, Raamiah; 4. Nahamani in Nehemiah, Εὐηνέος in 1 Esdras 5:8, omitted in the text of Ezra; 5. Mordecai, not the Mordecai of the book of Esther (Est_2:5.); 6. Bilshan; 7. Mispar, in Nehemiah Mispereth; 8. Bigvai; 9. Rehum, in 1 Esdras Ροΐ́μος; 10. Baanah. These ten, or reckoning Zerubbabel and Joshua, twelve men, are evidently intended, as leaders of the returning nation, to represent the new community as the successor of the twelve tribes of Israel."

    What is unarguable is the following data concerning the Nehemiah and Ezra we do have dates on.

    The 7th Year of Artaxerxes I (457 BC), Ezra goes to Jerusalem. 13 years later. In the 20th year of Artaxerxes I (444 BC) Nehemiah gets leave to go to Jerusalem. The wall is finished in 52 days. Nehemiah went back to the King at some point, and then in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes I (433 BC), 12 years later from the 20th year (444 BC), Nehemiah is back in Jerusalem. So from 457 BC (7th year) to 433 BC (32nd year) is only 25 yearish.

    Nehemiah 1:1 The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace,

    Nehemiah 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.

    which year was 444 BC, being the 20th year of Artaxerxes I - 444 BC - Wikipedia also see - Nehemiah - Wikipedia

    Nehemiah 5:14 Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor.

    "In the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes, king of Babylon," Nehemiah came again "unto the king, and after certain days, obtained leave of the king," and "came to Jerusalem." 13:6, 7. B. C. 433.

    Nehemiah 6:15 So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.

    Nehemiah 13:6 But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king:
    In Ezra 7 the command of Artaxerxes I Longimanus goes forth in his 7th year (457 BC) - "465 BC to 424 BC." Artaxerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia

    See also - ARTAXERXES I - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    Under the heading "457 BC" -
    "Artaxerxes I issues a decree to rebuild Jerusalem." - 457 BC - Wikipedia

    Presently you are assuming a starting age of both Ezra the scribe and Nehemiah the cupbearer as alive sometime during Cyrus II decree. The commentary, and common sense would say they are different people with the same name, which happens in familial genealogies in scripture. Just read Matthew 1:1-17; Luke 3:23-38 (Joseph, Matthat (and variations), Cainan, etc), and you are similarly making that same mistake with Mordecai, as reading into the texts of 2 Chronicles 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-3, 2:1-2; Nehemiah 7:5-7; Esther 2:5-7 that which it does not actually say.

    If you assume those persons mentioned are the same person, then ages become hefty (90's-120's or more depending on other assumptions).

    If however, the persons are not the same, as is most likely, then all the issues disappear in regards age, and the kings list, and Ester's marriage, etc all remain perfectly aligned with the non-scriptural kings lists (Ptolemy's Canon, Herodotus, et al.)

    The problem you (not I) currently have is in the assumptions your are using in several places, when they do not need to be so assumed, as there is other better options.

    And finally, even if you wanted the greater ages for Nehemiah and Ezra, please take note that Daniel himself, taken captive at 18, was around the age of 88-90 by the end of the captivity (end of the 70 years in the 1st year of Cyrus II) and into the 3rd year of Cyrus II (Daniel 10:1), being about the same age as John the Apostle on the Isle of Patmos, both of whom are call "beloved". Even Moses had lived to 120, and "his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (Deuteronomy 34:7), so even such ages, if you (not I) want to continue to assume what you assume, can still work.

    Mordecai is another matter entirely, as Esther could not be so old, as she would indeed have to be 16-18, as one of the "fair young virgins" (Esther 2:2), as "the maid was fair and beautiful" (Esther 2:7), a "maid" (Esther 2:12), as a "daughter" (Esther 2:7) to Mordecai's age, even though she was his cousin, by his own uncle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  10. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Sorry about the Daniel reference. That was an
    error. A senior moment I suppose.

    What I was trying to say was that the Darius you said was the second was in fact Darius 1, as he is mentioned when Nehemiah was recounting those that returned with Zerubabel. You are correct that
    However most of these and others returned with Zerubabel in Ezra and the sealed with Nehemiah later, so no reason why the 2 Nehemiahs were not the same.

    The city had already been built when Nehemiah returned and repaired the walls which took 52 days.

    Cyrus sent forth the command to rebuild the city and temple, but by Nehemiah's time the walls had been broken down. The people at the time he returned were living in their own houses and repairing the wall in front of their house.

    They built their houses before the temple Hagai 1:4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie waste?

    As you say, Esther was his uncle's daughter, therefor his cousin and the same generation as Mordecai, although I know that some people have cousins older than some of their uncles and Aunts. My wife did but whereas she addressed those more her age with their names, she addressed the elder two as Cousin Leonard, etc.

     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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