Which denomination fits my views???

Jacque_Pierre22

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I am having trouble figuring out what Church is correct for me to join. All my life I have attended a conservative Lutheran church (not that I am liberal). This is just background.
I beleive in 4 out of the 5 parts of TULIP.
I accept TOTAL DEPRAVITY
I accpet UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
I also accept the lutheran view of UNLIMITED ATONEMENT
However I accept the Calvinist view of IRRESISTABLE GRACE and PERSEVEARANCE OF THE SANTS.

So I accept 4 out the 5.

Secondly, I REJECT INFANT BAPTISM, AND THE REAL PRESENCE IN THE EUCHARIST. I do accept ADULT BAPTISM, and I will elaborate further on why I reject the REAL PRESENCE.

In Lutheranism, they believe that the Bread and Christ are united and Christ is fully "in" the bread. There is no mixing of natures between the bread and Christ in essence. However, Lutherans

reject the "essence energy" distinction in Eastern Orthodoxy. Also, Lutherans truly believe they are eating Christ's body! Without accepting the essence energies distinction, this is eating the

"essence" of Christ even if that is explicitly denied!! The essence energy distinction is considered "neoplatonic" to them because it is too philosophical for them. I only want this distinction for the Eucharist and still affirm the Lutheran view of monergism in salvation and justification.

My third problem is if I attend a baptism church, they are too arminian and REJECT TOTAL DEPRAVITY AND UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and are too arminian. Even the radical fundamentalist baptist churches

believe in free will and reject the TU in TULIP.

Is there not a single church that accepts my views??? Are there any other people out there that agree with me?
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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unfortunately, they believe that one can resist grace just like the lutherans. I like how they are sacramental though and their Lord's supper is good. I guess it could be said that I believe in the Real Presence but we are not actually eating Christ's literal body. Lutherans have an even more advanced concept of the Lord's Supper than Catholics, since to a Lutheran it is all about Christology. They want Christ to be "in" the bread so as to not deny Christ's omnipresence as human. Remember how Jesus appeared to people in human flesh after the resurrection? He was in multiple places at the same time. Therefore, they say this to affirm that Christ is both present IN THE BREAD at the same time as He is SITTING AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND. I however, do not believe, that one can believe this is logically true because, why not just appear in the flesh at the eucharist then??? Thanks
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Christ human form is not omnipresent, I'm saying that if he was at the eucharist he would just show himself at the eucharist rather than "be in the bread somehow" as is the Lutheran doctrine. Also Methodists believe in Free will like the Eastern Orthodox, so that means no T in Tulip. They also believe in L "limited atonement" which is the 1 tenet of TULIP I don't like. I hold to TUUIP.
 
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graceandpeace

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Methodism does not fit what you're looking for, & based on your comments I'm not convinced you understand Lutheranism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

The vast majority of Christian churches (including Methodists) practice infant baptism & believe in (some form of) the Real Presence.

That said, I think the closest match to what you're looking for is a Reformed Baptist church; however, they may not agree with your view on unlimited atonement. That may be a point you have to compromise on.

Starting your own denomination is not the answer. Being open to worshipping with other Christians who may not agree on every last detail of theology is a much better alternative.

My advice would be to take your time on your journey & keep an open mind. Carefully research Christian history & tradition, as well the denominations that exist today, & make an informed decision.

Good luck.
 
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GoingByzantine

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You might be able to find a fringe Anabaptist group who believes with your theology. It would have to be a fringe group however, as most mainstream groups are going to have contention on a few of your listed points.

It might do you well to find a non-Denominational church in your area that fits with your theology, send out emails to local pastors and check church websites.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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What I said about Lutheranism doctrine of real presence is taken from my understanding of it from justandsinner.com; As far as the Byzantine who replied, how do you understand the eucharist in terms of the essence energy distinction? Are you eating Christ's essence by eating the bread or only energies? thanks guys

Christos Anesti
 
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GoingByzantine

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What I said about Lutheranism doctrine of real presence is taken from my understanding of it from justandsinner.com; As far as the Byzantine who replied, how do you understand the eucharist in terms of the essence energy distinction? Are you eating Christ's essence by eating the bread or only energies? thanks guys

Christos Anesti

I believe in the real presence of the Eucharist, Christ was not speaking in Symbolic terms in Jn 6:53-55:

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

How do we know this? Well, when Jesus speaks symbolically, John normally will point this out in his writing. Take Jn 7:37-39, or Jn 8:25-27 for instance. These are instances of John letting people know that Christ's word was symbolic, he did no such thing for the real presence verses I showed above. They are meant to be taken literally. Also if Jesus was speaking symbolically he would have told his apostles per Mk 4:34.

Now in terms of the distinction between ousia and energia, it is something I believe in because it is fundamental to hesychasm which I also believe in. Divine energies are within everything and outside everything, creation is indeed a manifestation of these energies. This means that in the Eucharist, we experience mystical union with our Lord. We receive the energy of God through the eucharist, not the essence which is unknown.
 
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Albion

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I am having trouble figuring out what Church is correct for me to join. All my life I have attended a conservative Lutheran church (not that I am liberal). This is just background.
I beleive in 4 out of the 5 parts of TULIP.
I accept TOTAL DEPRAVITY
I accpet UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
I also accept the lutheran view of UNLIMITED ATONEMENT
However I accept the Calvinist view of IRRESISTABLE GRACE and PERSEVEARANCE OF THE SANTS.

So I accept 4 out the 5.

Secondly, I REJECT INFANT BAPTISM, AND THE REAL PRESENCE IN THE EUCHARIST. I do accept ADULT BAPTISM, and I will elaborate further on why I reject the REAL PRESENCE.

In Lutheranism, they believe that the Bread and Christ are united and Christ is fully "in" the bread. There is no mixing of natures between the bread and Christ in essence. However, Lutherans

reject the "essence energy" distinction in Eastern Orthodoxy. Also, Lutherans truly believe they are eating Christ's body! Without accepting the essence energies distinction, this is eating the

"essence" of Christ even if that is explicitly denied!! The essence energy distinction is considered "neoplatonic" to them because it is too philosophical for them. I only want this distinction for the Eucharist and still affirm the Lutheran view of monergism in salvation and justification.

My third problem is if I attend a baptism church, they are too arminian and REJECT TOTAL DEPRAVITY AND UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and are too arminian. Even the radical fundamentalist baptist churches

believe in free will and reject the TU in TULIP.

Is there not a single church that accepts my views??? Are there any other people out there that agree with me?

Hi. First off, Methodism is nothing like what you are looking for. "Grace and Peace" was right about that. But beyond that, I am a trifle bit surprised that you are unable to find your fit. It's certainly "out there." :)

It wouldn't be Lutheranism, as you already know. But if you turn to the Baptists, I don't see why you'd say there is no hope there for you. It's estimated that about HALF of all Baptists are Calvinists, like you, and half are Arminian. It would seem to me that you need only to find one of those that's in your corner.

The General Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC) is known for its stance, and when I've asked members of my local Christian Reformed Church where former members tend to go next when they leave...and, guess what, it's to the GARBC church. Of course, there are other 'Regular Baptist' churches, too.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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The problem with most evangelical groups is that their doctrine of the trinity is corrupted by theologians. Many prominent ones reject the "eternal generation of the son" which is an Orthodox doctrine and instead believe in subordination. This results in God being a monad and Jesus a created being. Also many scholars want to remove that phrase from the original creed. And I'm NOT a calvinist. Like a said the Lutherans interpret Total depravity and Unconditional election differently than calvinists do. Calvinists also don't have things like 2 kinds of righteousness and law and gospel distinctions and make everything about the "sovereignty of God" which I can't stand.
It is clear I need to start my own church that has the essence energies distinction, the eternal generation of the son; I need to study more on TULIP though.
 
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graceandpeace

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The problem with most evangelical groups is that their doctrine of the trinity is corrupted by theologians. Many prominent ones reject the "eternal generation of the son" which is an Orthodox doctrine and instead believe in subordination. This results in God being a monad and Jesus a created being. Also many scholars want to remove that phrase from the original creed. And I'm NOT a calvinist. Like a said the Lutherans interpret Total depravity and Unconditional election differently than calvinists do. Calvinists also don't have things like 2 kinds of righteousness and law and gospel distinctions and make everything about the "sovereignty of God" which I can't stand.
It is clear I need to start my own church that has the essence energies distinction, the eternal generation of the son; I need to study more on TULIP though.

Starting ANOTHER denomination in a sea of them - especially when there are already well known churches that exist which greatly match your views - is foolish. Very few Christians agree on every last nitty gritty detail, even within the same denomination. The wise way forward is to do a lot of research on Church history, denominations, etc & then make a decision.

Based on where you currently stand - acceptance of 4 out of 5 points of TULIP, rejection of infant baptism, & rejection of the Real Presence - Reformed Baptist or some other Baptist group is going to be a close match.

All Christians accept the pre-existence & eternal nature of the Son, so I don't understand what your post is really trying to say & again suggest research.

If you are at peace with the way the Lutheran tradition approaches some matters & can compromise on some things, then perhaps you'd be better off remaining where you are.
 
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Albion

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The problem with most evangelical groups is that their doctrine of the trinity is corrupted by theologians. Many prominent ones reject the "eternal generation of the son" which is an Orthodox doctrine and instead believe in subordination. This results in God being a monad and Jesus a created being.
Yes, it does sound like that's what you're trying to justify. But this is the "looking for a church" forum where we try to help people seeking the right one for them among the existing church bodies.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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To Albion: It sounds like you think that "eternal generation of the son" advocates for mormonism. No, it is a doctrine of the trinity in the Nicene Creed that is supposed to affirm that Jesus is God AND uncreated and it is also AGAINST subordination. It should not be foreign to any denomination's beliefs because that would make every denomination Arian. However, most people think this doctrine is in favor of subordination including William Lane Craig because they misinterpret Anastasius and Greek equalitypressDOTwordpressDOTcom/2009/08/21/william-lane-craig-on-the-generation-of-the-son/ Here we see that Dr. Craig does not understand Greek and thinks this doctrine advocates subordination and thus a Monad, which is ironically what he himself is advocating by removing it. It's all explained in the book written by an Anglican, Kevin Giles. Ironically too, Dr James White does not teach or emphasize this to my knowledge and he is the leading theologian on the trinity. Much work has been written though showing that this is an important doctrine that prevents thinks like Arianism but people just don't like the way it sounds in English and reject it without any research.
To graceandpeace: I have considered just "settling" for a Baptist church but there are so many differences I have with them still. I am amillenialist unlike John Macarthur who is dispensational and even RC Sproul now believes in preterism.Especially in my area, I already know they aren't amillenialist. Most believe in the pretrib rapture. Why not start another church? We need churches to prepare people and I'm sure I could attract at least 20 people who agree with me.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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It would basically be Lutheran with some emphasized doctrines. I'm not happy that my Lutheran church only preaches from the New testament though, and it's always grace grace grace.... I need to learn the Old testament too. I think sermons are too short (only 30 min). I think they should be 3 hours. You know in persecuted Asian countries, there is no time limit on preaching, it goes on for like 8 hours from what I've read. I really see some dark times ahead for this country and so many people who are still too comfortable and just want to hear grace. Church attendance in Europe is less than the number of Muslims who attend. In Russia it's like 2% who go to church. So this country is the last country that is strong besides Africa and Asia where christians are getting killed. And with globalization, it won't be long before we are treated the same.
 
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Albion

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To Albion: It sounds like you think that "eternal generation of the son" advocates for mormonism.

Hmm. No, that never crossed my mind and I can't find anything in my earlier posts that even seems to lean in that direction.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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ok. then it was just the tone of your comment made me think that you thought I wanted to start some kind of mormon-like denomination with Jesus as a created being. That's one of the flaws of typing because there is no body language.
 
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Albion

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ok. then it was just the tone of your comment made me think that you thought I wanted to start some kind of mormon-like denomination with Jesus as a created being.
Certainly not.

But you do seem to want to start your own church; and aside from saying that doing so would be a bad idea, there apparently isn't much we can do to help you.
 
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