Which Church is THE Church?

[Albion]

I think that recognition of the Presence of the Lord is something that is mostly missing from Protestant teaching

I'm sure that a Pentecostal or Charismatic Protestant would say exactly the same thing about most Catholic teaching.

 

[Light of the East]

Please see the thread I have started in General Theology -- "Purgatory: A Colossal Fraud".

Can't find it. There are a number of sub-forums under the general forum of General Theology. In which one did you start the thread?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think that recognition of the Presence of the Lord is something that is mostly missing from Protestant teaching and better emphasized in Traditions. And I say mostly missing because of the lack of centrality of this teaching.

With Protestants it's called 'reckoning'. Reckoning ourselves dead yet alive to Christ. But I don't think that even that teaching is expanded on enough to make those taking it in to become aware of the never-failing Presence of the Lord in our every movement in life.

I say the ever Presence because that is the fact. He is not there only when we recognise Him as being there. But it is His being Present that makes christianity Christianity.

/////
But a previous poster said that they have the physical presence of Jesus at communion - when the bread and wine is transformed into his body and blood. I was just wondering why they need to believe that he is physically present. I hadn't heard that before, and it doesn't make sense to me.

The first disciples met daily and broke bread. Jesus said to pick up our cross daily. There is nothing as rewarding as recognizing His Presence with us every day of our lives.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm sure that a Pentecostal or Charismatic Protestant would say exactly the same thing about most Catholic teaching.

I am Charismatic Protestant, so yah, they are missing the point too.

 

[Albion]

Can't find it. There are a number of sub-forums under the general forum of General Theology. In which one did you start the thread?

It's been closed because of some ugly posts but will (I presume) reopen.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not a problem at all. Read Matthew 21: 33-46. We see Jesus there teaching in a parable that the congregation of God, or Kingdom of God, would be taken from national Israel and given to "a new nation bringing forth fruits in due season." That new nation is the Gentile/Jew congregation, the eklessis in the NT, which by the second century had come to be called "katholicos."

Indeed, with the advent of Christ the form and administration of the church changed. But the same church of Jesus Christ spans both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's inaccurate to say that Jesus started a church 2000 years ago.

There is no mention of a denomination called "Presbyterian" anywhere in Scripture.

There are no denominations in Scripture, I'm aware of this. I don't claim that there are.

 

[Albion]

There is no mention of a denomination called "Presbyterian" anywhere in Scripture.

Neither is there a mention of any entity called "Catholic" anywhere in Scripture--all of which should reinforce our understanding that Christ has a church, not a club.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I wasn't going to post again in this thread because it's become too heated. But this answer intrigues me.

So "real presence" means that the bread and wine become literal, physical flesh and blood so that Jesus is physically present ? I hadn't understood that before.
Serious question, and with respect; why is that necessary/important? Before his death and resurrection, Jesus told his disciples that it was better for them if he went away because then he would send the Holy Spirit who would live IN them, John 16:7. The Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and can live in us now. The Spirit is God; the 3rd person of the trinity, sent by Jesus, to live in us and point us to him.
So as we can have GOD himself living in us, assuring us of our salvation and that we are God's children, why is it necessary to believe that Jesus is physically present with us as well as we share communion?

Jesus stayed for 40 days after the resurrection teaching his disciples, Acts 1:3, but then ascended to heaven. He has promised to be with us always, but nowhere has he said that this presence would be physical. Neither did he say that if anyone believed in a physical presence that meant they would have more of him than those who believed he was present by his Spirit.
So why the teaching on the "real presence"?

I believe in the communion of saints - it's in the creed, and "therefore with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven ....." was/is part of the Anglican communion liturgy.

But a previous poster said that they have the physical presence of Jesus at communion - when the bread and wine is transformed into his body and blood. I was just wondering why they need to believe that he is physically present. I hadn't heard that before, and it doesn't make sense to me.

How else would we take up our cross and follow HIM?

Edit to add: The physical Presence isn't necessary except to conceptualize Jesus as our example. The Holy Spirit is not our example nor is the Father.

 

[Strong in Him]

The first disciples met daily and broke bread. Jesus said to pick up our cross daily. There is nothing as rewarding as recognizing His Presence with us every day of our lives.

Absolutely. But I am talking about this:

I'm referring to the Real Presence as in the physical presence of Christ as the bread and wine are turned into flesh and blood. Only Catholics, Orthodox, and Episcopalians have this Sacrament. Lutherans have a version of it. I believe you are referring to a spiritual presence which I believe is valid.

Unless I've misunderstood, the belief is that Jesus becomes physically present at communion - there in person, when his body and blood are consumed.

My question was why is it necessary/important to believe that Jesus is physically present?
He promised to be with us always, but nowhere did he say that would be a physical presence. He also said he would live IN us by his Spirit; again, not a physical presence. I can't believe Catholics are saying that he returns to earth to stand, in person, in each of their many many churches while mass is being said; such a thing would be impossible. He is with them as they say Mass - undoubtedly; just as he is with Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, Orthodox, URC and house churches as they meet to break bread in his name. As Spirit he can do that, whereas as a man in Galilee he could obviously only be in one place at one time. So what does physical presence mean, and why is it important?

I'm not asking to mock, or argue. It would be good, though, to understand.

 

[Strong in Him]

How else would we take up our cross and follow HIM?

??
Jesus has ascended to heaven; he did so long before any of us were even born.
We follow him by accepting who he was when he was on earth - God incarnate, the Messiah, the giver of eternal life, the only way to the Father, the Good Shepherd who lay down his life for the sheep; who he IS - risen, ascended and glorified king, and by receiving and obeying his teachings and his example.

Jesus is not physically or bodily here, on earth. He will be one day when he returns as king - every eye will see him - but he isn't yet. That doesn't mean that we can't know his presence or have some very wonderful and intimate moments of fellowship. He, God himself, lives IN us, and wherever we go, we take his presence with us into whatever situation we find ourselves. We can certainly follow Jesus today, and millions do. But it is not following a human, physical, flesh and blood person.

 

[Albion]

Absolutely. But I am talking about this:


Unless I've misunderstood, the belief is that Jesus becomes physically present at communion - there in person, when his body and blood are consumed.

My question was why is it necessary/important to believe that Jesus is physically present?

That makes the ceremony/sacrament seem to be all the more miraculous, doesn't it?

He promised to be with us always, but nowhere did he say that would be a physical presence.

Well, this is mainly a matter of interpreting the words spoken by Christ at the Last Supper as he was instituting the Eucharist AKA the Lord's Supper.

I can't believe Catholics are saying that he returns to earth to stand, in person, in each of their many many churches while mass is being said; such a thing would be impossible.

Strictly speaking, they don't think that. They believe that the bread and wine have been changed into his very body and blood--although they don't look like that or feel or taste like it.

This is miraculous not only because of the interpretation of Christ's words, but because Aristotle -- a guiding force in Medieval Christendom -- taught that the essence or substance of a thing cannot change, although the "accidents" (the external packaging) can. So the 'miracle of the Mass' is that this POV (transubstantiation) was otherwise considered to be impossible.

 

[Thursday]

Wot a koad of fluff.dont quote random non scriptural fluf at me as if it has authority.thats like saying bob from bobtown said blah blah and that nullifies scripture.
fluff and rubbish.
dont message me again
.

I proved you wrong. The Catholic Church was started by Christ. I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is not historically accurate.

 

[Thursday]

One major problem with this line of argument is that the church is much older than 2000 years. It started, at least, with Abraham roughly 4000 years ago.

Jesus started a Church when he came to earth.

 

[Thursday]

The reference there is to the undenominational church as opposed to the Gnostics and other mystery religions. The word means "authentic."

It actually means "on the whole" or "universal".

Regardless, there was only one Church, and it has come to be called Catholic.

Ignatius made it clear that the hierarchical church, started by Jesus, was the authority for Christian teaching and practice.

 

[Thursday]

The church consists of :
Rev. 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called(klaytos) and chosen (eklektos) and faithful."

How many churches do you think Jesus started?

 

[Thursday]

There you go. The Church founded in the Holy Land was the church at Jerusalem. So that automatically cancels the church at Rome.

It doesn't matter where the Church is located, it matters that it is led by those sent by Jesus.

 

[Albion]

I proved you wrong. The Catholic Church was started by Christ. .

That's what you wrote, yes.

If that was meant to convince YOU, I think that's all it was intended to accomplish.

 

[Albion]

It actually means "on the whole" or "universal".

Which translates to something akin to "authentic" in our language. It's still not in the Bible.

 

[Strong in Him]

That makes the ceremony/sacrament seem to be all the more miraculous, doesn't it?

Not to me it doesn't, to be quite honest.
When Jesus was on earth he could not physically be in 2 places at once - which is why both sisters said "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." So to imply that he is physically present in every Catholic church and cathedral throughout the world, for every Mass; no matter what time of day or time zone, just makes it all sound pretty ludicrous. Present with them spiritually - yes, of course, but not physically.
But then, it's not my belief, and, like I said, I don't intend to mock or argue.

Strictly speaking, they don't think that. They believe that the bread and wine have been changed into his very body and blood--although they don't look like that or feel or taste like it.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Albion]

Not to me it doesn't, to be quite honest.

Fair enough, but I thought you might get that Catholics would see it that way.

Present with them spiritually - yes, of course, but not physically.
But then, it's not my belief, and, like I said, I don't intend to mock or argue.

Well, what you describe IS closer to what the prevailing view of the Lord's Supper had been prior to the High Middle Ages. The bread and wine were believed to be changed in some way, but not physically and certainly not into the body of Christ as it was on Earth. That, as you said, is believed to be at the right hand of the Father in glory.