Which Bible version would you recommend?

[Radagast]

People who studied under Leon Morris tell me that the ethos of the place has changed greatly since his time, and become much more conservative.

Leon Morris himself, as a scholar, was quite conservative -- although, afaik, he did strongly support the ordination of women.

He was also, I am reminded, on the translation committee of the old (1984) NIV (as was David Williams, also at Ridley).

 

[Paidiske]

I never knew him, but people older than me who were his students tell me he did, indeed; and with the authority of being a significant evangelical NT scholar.

(By more conservative I mean socially conservative, rather than theologically conservative, if that distinction is clear?)

 

[Radagast]

I never knew him, but people older than me who were his students tell me he did, indeed; and with the authority of being a significant evangelical NT scholar.

(By more conservative I mean socially conservative, rather than theologically conservative, if that distinction is clear?)

And by "conservative," I meant "theologically conservative."

I hadn't quite realised (or had forgotten) the extent of Ridley's involvement with the old NIV -- that may help to explain its prevalence in Victoria.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not sure whether Ridley has become more or less theologically conservative over that time. I don't have enough information to make any statement about that.

I think there is probably a trend to different things being influential; the "old school" conservative Ridley folks were what I think of as traditional English evangelicals; cassock, surplice and scarf, BCP, and a theology that expressed itself as much (or more) in intellectual rigour as in emotional warmth.

Today I see a more Americanised trend; the foregoing of any vestments, the eschewing of prayer books, and a theology that's expressed much more in the experience of worship as it is in any sort of verbal form.

Now, to be fair, I was never a Ridley student; but I've been there for various things over many years, and have had lots of conversations with staff, students and alumni, so it's probably not an entirely unfair summary on my part either.

 

[Complete in Thee]

Broadly speaking, yes I think that would be accurate.

Both are good and sound translations. The NRSV tends towards inclusive language for people (so, for example, expanding the Greek adelphoi to "brothers and sisters" rather than simply brothers, when talking about or to a mixed group).

The study notes of the NIV are frankly far superior in their breadth and depth. But the NRSV includes the deuterocanonical books, which are not in the NIV.

My observation is that the NIV has a noticeable socially conservative bias in its translation, and especially in its study notes. The NRSV has a more socially liberal bias. When I talk about bias, I don't mean they go beyond the possible meaning of the Greek. But often the Greek is ambiguous and has a range of possible meanings, and the NIV consistently chooses the conservative end of that range of possible meaning, if that makes sense?

Yes, it does make sense. It's interesting how we have the option to cherrypick a Bible version which compliments our own social views and beliefs rather than a translation which is true to the text and meaning. Maybe all of us are somewhat guilty of that. Ideally, I would like a version which isn't biased one way or another but simple Gods word and truth.

 

[Paidiske]

Sadly, I don't know if that's possible. So often, in translating, we have to decide, not just what the words say, but what we think the author meant by them...

 

[Complete in Thee]

I'm not sure whether Ridley has become more or less theologically conservative over that time. I don't have enough information to make any statement about that.

I think there is probably a trend to different things being influential; the "old school" conservative Ridley folks were what I think of as traditional English evangelicals; cassock, surplice and scarf, BCP, and a theology that expressed itself as much (or more) in intellectual rigour as in emotional warmth.

Today I see a more Americanised trend; the foregoing of any vestments, the eschewing of prayer books, and a theology that's expressed much more in the experience of worship as it is in any sort of verbal form.

Now, to be fair, I was never a Ridley student; but I've been there for various things over many years, and have had lots of conversations with staff, students and alumni, so it's probably not an entirely unfair summary on my part either.

From what I have been told about Ridley by some friends of mine who currently study there is Ridley have a Calvinist/Reformed leaning.

I might possibly use both the NRSV and NIV anglicised/NKJV. It is handy that the NRSV does come with the deuterocanonical books which do get used when studying theology.

 

[Complete in Thee]

Sadly, I don't know if that's possible. So often, in translating, we have to decide, not just what the words say, but what we think the author meant by them...

True! All translators would be somewhat biased.
Seeing I have you here, do you know of any Anglican churches in Melbourne who are conservative in faith and Anglo-Catholic in worship, which have an afternoon service?

 

[Paidiske]

Well, the new principal came from Sydney, so that's not very surprising.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, it does make sense. It's interesting how we have the option to cherrypick a Bible version which compliments our own social views and beliefs rather than a translation which is true to the text and meaning. Maybe all of us are somewhat guilty of that. Ideally, I would like a version which isn't biased one way or another but simple Gods word and truth.

There are different philosophies of translation. In 1 Corinthians 1:10, for example, Paul says adelphoi (ἀδελφοί). Literally that means "brothers," so the ESV translates it as such, with a footnote indicating that "brothers and sisters" is also a possible meaning.

The NRSV, CSB, and 2011 NIV translate the word as "brothers and sisters" (with a footnote in the NRSV indicating that "brothers" is more literal).

 

[Paidiske]

Seeing I have you here, do you know of any Anglican churches in Melbourne who are conservative in faith and Anglo-Catholic in worship, which have an afternoon service?

Ooh, now there's a challenge. Not many places have afternoon services at all.

All Saints East St. Kilda have a 5pm Evensong on the first Sunday of the month.
Christ Church Brunswick have a 5pm evening prayer with sermon or reflection, every week from what I can make of their website.

It probably depends:

- Where in Melbourne is convenient to you?
- How conservative? (Or to put that another way, which particular things would you be looking for in a conservative parish?)
- How Anglo-Catholic? (Again, what specifically are you looking for?)

If you'd rather put that in a PM, feel free, I'm happy to try to help you find the right place.

 

[Complete in Thee]

There are different philosophies of translation. In 1 Corinthians 1:10, for example, Paul says adelphoi (ἀδελφοί). Literally, that means "brothers," so the ESV translates it as such, with a footnote indicating that "brothers and sisters" is also a possible meaning.

The NRSV, CSB, and 2011 NIV translates the word as "brothers and sisters" (with a footnote in the NRSV indicating that "brothers" is more literal).

Thanks. That is interesting. What do you think of the RSV?

 

[Radagast]

Well, the new principal came from Sydney

But he studied in Dallas and Cambridge, afaik.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks. That is interesting. What do you think of the RSV?

Nobody likes the old RSV. The ESV and the NRSV are both revisions of it, from different philosophical perspectives.

 

[Complete in Thee]

Ooh, now there's a challenge. Not many places have afternoon services at all.

All Saints East St. Kilda have a 5pm Evensong on the first Sunday of the month.
Christ Church Brunswick have a 5pm evening prayer with sermon or reflection, every week from what I can make of their website.

It probably depends:

- Where in Melbourne is convenient to you?
- How conservative? (Or to put that another way, which particular things would you be looking for in a conservative parish?)
- How Anglo-Catholic? (Again, what specifically are you looking for?)

If you'd rather put that in a PM, feel free, I'm happy to try to help you find the right place.

I live in the wild west but I drive so it's not an issue. It wouldn't be something I'd attend every week but perhaps every fortnight (ish). I am happy to share with you here, nobody is perfect haha.

- Traditional view of sin, marriage/sexuality, salvation, Jesus etc
- Clergy preferably male, however, it's not a deal-breaker. I do value the quality of whats being taught over one's gender.
- Worship anywhere from broad to 'hardcore' anglo-catholic.

It doesn't have to be on a Sunday nor tick all the boxes.
Does that help?

 

[Complete in Thee]

Nobody likes the old RSV. The ESV and the NRSV are both revisions of it, from different philosophical perspectives.

Do you know what these different philosophical perspectives are?

 

[Paidiske]

That is helpful, definitely, because it gives you more options than if you wanted extremes.

Holy Trinity Williamstown has a fortnightly 5pm Eucharist. I think it'd tick your boxes; the vicar's a really interesting guy who was (possibly still is, not sure) a prison chaplain for a long time. I like him a lot.

You might even look at the Cathedral, which'd be pretty broad-middle (evensong is at 6pm, which pushes the definition of "afternoon," but the roster of preachers is usually pretty robust). And it's convenient if you want to take the train in, too.

I don't know the west so well, I'm over the other side, so I'm stretching the brain to think of what I know of parishes in that direction.

 

[Complete in Thee]

That is helpful, definitely, because it gives you more options than if you wanted extremes.

Holy Trinity Williamstown has a fortnightly 5pm Eucharist. I think it'd tick your boxes; the vicar's a really interesting guy who was (possibly still is, not sure) a prison chaplain for a long time. I like him a lot.

You might even look at the Cathedral, which'd be pretty broad-middle (evensong is at 6pm, which pushes the definition of "afternoon," but the roster of preachers is usually pretty robust). And it's convenient if you want to take the train in, too.

I don't know the west so well, I'm over the other side, so I'm stretching the brain to think of what I know of parishes in that direction.

Thank you Paidiske, I appreciate it. Williamstown is a good place for me to start. I really enjoy visiting the Cathedral, however, I do find all the tourists somewhat distracting at times. Last year I was at the Lunch service (I think it was 12:15 pm) the priest was an elderly Aussie bloke. Do you know who it may have been? He has left a good impression on me.

 

[Paidiske]

The Cathedral is definitely an acquired taste. (I worked there for years, so I can say that!)

The lunch time Eucharists are taken by a roster of retired clergy - one for each day of the month - so it could have been almost anybody, I'm afraid!

But yeah, I think you could do a lot worse than giving Williamstown a try. Let me know how you get on.

 

[Radagast]

Do you know what these different philosophical perspectives are?

ESV: Translation Philosophy | ESV.org

NRSV: ABOUT the NRSV