Where's the second chance Passover come in?

[Aaron Rich]

I've pondered on this and studied it a little, but I figure I will put it out here to see what thoughts you all can offer.

So, Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, who died on Passover and took away the sins of all those that come to faith in Him. That's the Passover for the believer, right?

How then does Number 9 come into play?

If I am on a "long journey" in life to come to Yeshua, when is the opportunity missed and therefore in need of the "second Passover" opportunity?

Is that post-death some time? That would certainly contradict the vast majority of theologians...not that the Bible doesn't do that already on many other topics. I'm definitely learning to read it myself because most Chrisitian's theology and the Bible just don't line up. So please, can you offer every possible Scripture you have on the subject?

I realize that many of you errantly believe the "Old Testament" is outdated and we can ignore it. If you're that person, this question isn't for you. I would like to hear from those of you that consider yourselves observant of God's everlasting Torah.

I guess my boiled down question is when do we officially miss our first chance at participating in the "Passover lamb" that would then necessitate our second opportunity?

 

[FrankDux]

Don't want to derail the thread here, but,...

Why is everybody looking for a date for something lately ?

 

[PropheticTimes]

The second passover (Pesach Sheni) was designed to be held one month after the first one and was for those Jewish people who for one reason or another were either ceremonially unclean or out of the country at the time of the first one (Numbers 9:6-12). This way they could fulfill the requirement for everyone to celebrate passover.

Keep in mind, Jesus was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, once for all. The Passover Feast laws were given as a foreshadowing of what Jesus would accomplish. In this new covenant, those laws are no longer needed. So in answer to your question, there is no post-death "second chance passover" because that dealt with physical uncleanness, not spiritual uncleanness (sin) which is what the Lamb of God took from us on the cross.

 

[pastor marty]

I've pondered on this and studied it a little, but I figure I will put it out here to see what thoughts you all can offer.

So, Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, who died on Passover and took away the sins of all those that come to faith in Him. That's the Passover for the believer, right?

How then does Number 9 come into play?

If I am on a "long journey" in life to come to Yeshua, when is the opportunity missed and therefore in need of the "second Passover" opportunity?

Is that post-death some time? That would certainly contradict the vast majority of theologians...not that the Bible doesn't do that already on many other topics. I'm definitely learning to read it myself because most Chrisitian's theology and the Bible just don't line up. So please, can you offer every possible Scripture you have on the subject?

I realize that many of you errantly believe the "Old Testament" is outdated and we can ignore it. If you're that person, this question isn't for you. I would like to hear from those of you that consider yourselves observant of God's everlasting Torah.

I guess my boiled down question is when do we officially miss our first chance at participating in the "Passover lamb" that would then necessitate our second opportunity?

I'm so glad most of the 12 were illiterate fishermen,as well as the 70;& the next 1000 or so Chistians.NO books 2 debate & fight over; just 2 er more & th' Holy Ghost. Them wuz th'daze !!!

 

[Aaron Rich]

I'm so glad most of the 12 were illiterate fishermen,as well as the 70;& the next 1000 or so Chistians.NO books 2 debate & fight over; just 2 er more & th' Holy Ghost. Them wuz th'daze !!!

Definitely off topic - but is there Biblical evidence that they were illiterate? There is evidence within the scriptures that the majority were under age, but I don't know that I've seen the illiterate part. I'm most willing to read the proof texts though!

Given the culture they grew up in (strictly speaking historically and extra-Biblically now), it's highly likely that they would have been able to read and if you can read the writing generally would come along with it. (Note: I'm not talking about penmanship) How do I know that? It's because the men of the synagogue would share the reading of the weekly Torah portion - 7 men. The first man would be a Priest, second man would be a non-Aaronic Levite, 4-6 would be regular men (fisherman included), the last would be a boy being bar mitvahed that week or an important visitor of the week. Hence, Yeshua reading the scroll in His home synagogue in Luke 4:17. While they all would have had the scriptures memorized due to their schooling system, these men would read (and still do) directly from the Torah scroll. For the final reader as was Yeshua's case, it's custom to read the last tiny bit of the Torah portion and then read the Haftorah (Prophets) portion of the week.

 

[Aaron Rich]

The second passover (Pesach Sheni) was designed to be held one month after the first one and was for those Jewish people who for one reason or another were either ceremonially unclean or out of the country at the time of the first one (Numbers 9:6-12). This way they could fulfill the requirement for everyone to celebrate passover.

Keep in mind, Jesus was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, once for all. The Passover Feast laws were given as a foreshadowing of what Jesus would accomplish. In this new covenant, those laws are no longer needed. So in answer to your question, there is no post-death "second chance passover" because that dealt with physical uncleanness, not spiritual uncleanness (sin) which is what the Lamb of God took from us on the cross.

My question regarding post-death was only one "possibility" trying to think outside the typical theological box - not my saying that's what it is. I'm of the understanding that everything is a foreshadow and in case of the feasts there's no question on that. That would include the second chance Passover. I think there's something more there that needs to be studied and understood from a believers standpoint. I know that there's extensive commentary on it in the Jewish writings, but I'm trying to understand it from a perspective of believers. The first four feasts were literally completed while Yeshua was still he and the last three will be completed when He returns. The second Passover would have occurred after the first 4 feasts so does that mean there's something in between the two comings potentially?? I'm not sure. Really I'm just trying to noodle through it.

I will respectfully disagree that the laws are no longer "needed". I'm getting off in the weeds a bit, and it would probably need to be a completely different thread, but obedience is the difference between being holy and not being holy. We were gifted with righteousness through Yeshua's death. We should respond with action and that action is obedience. Obedience is how we become holy.

Contrary to western thought, righteousness and holiness are not synonymous. There's a reason the bride in Revelation has "prepared herself".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess my boiled down question is when do we officially miss our first chance at participating in the "Passover lamb" that would then necessitate our second opportunity?

'necessitate' is inappropriate as if to compel YHWH to change His Word.
As He Says,
TODAY is the day to choose, and there is no second opportunity if one dies. As you read through Scripture, YHWH Willing He grants understanding of Scripture,
this is perfectly understood and clear, no doubts, no objections.

 

[Aaron Rich]

Don't want to derail the thread here, but,...

Why is everybody looking for a date for something lately ?

No looking for any specific date. Just trying to noodle through what the second Passover is all about.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No looking for any specific date. Just trying to noodle through what the second Passover is all about.

I think it is clearly spelled out in TORAH.

 

[Aaron Rich]

'necessitate' is inappropriate as if to compel YHWH to change His Word.
As He Says,
TODAY is the day to choose, and there is no second opportunity if one dies. As you read through Scripture, YHWH Willing He grants understanding of Scripture,
this is perfectly understood and clear, no doubts, no objections.

Thank you! I realize that's pretty clear. I was using that as a starting point in the pondering not saying there's a definite chance post death. I'm asking for thoughts on what the ultimate purpose is of the second Passover. It's foretelling of something...but what?

 

[Aaron Rich]

I think it is clearly spelled out in TORAH.

Great!! Please help me to understand. This is why I'm here.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's foretelling of something...but what?

There's no indication that it is foretelling of something.

There is "TODAY" YHWH says to not harden hearts but listen to Him,
then
He 're-schedules' TODAY for the sake of some that do not choose TODAY, but do survive until tomorrow...

As He Pleases.

Since He is perfectly clear in His Word, in Y'SHUA MESSIAH, that "TODAY" is the opportunity to be saved, if it still exists (for some people it may not, even though they are walking around "TODAY", if YHWH has given them over to believe their delusions),
and
that after death is the judgment, period.

Those things which are so contrary to His Word,
heresies, or pagan beliefs, from the devil and the flesh and the way men think (like Jesus rebuked Peter for),
are not edifying nor uplifting nor encouraging in following Jesus nor in discussions in the assembling of His children.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, who died on Passover and took away the sins of all those that come to faith in Him. That's the Passover for the believer, right?

Sorry that English is so horrible, and thankful that only the Word of YHWH is a sharp two-edged sword separating even the bone from the marrow (the thoughts and intents of the heart), so
with that , YHWH'S WORD, as the basis, foundation, strength and purpose for life and direction,

the answer to your quoted question may be no.

For instance, humanly speaking, IF while the Israelites (Hebrews?) were in Egypt slaves, just before they were set free by YHWH's DOing,
if then an egyptian put blood on the door frame as directed by YHWH and as written in His Word,
at the TIME APPOINTED BY YHWH,
i.e. BEFORE the angel of death passed by,

would not the first-born have been spared?

 

[Aaron Rich]

Sorry that English is so horrible, and thankful that only the Word of YHWH is a sharp two-edged sword separating even the bone from the marrow (the thoughts and intents of the heart), so
with that , YHWH'S WORD, as the basis, foundation, strength and purpose for life and direction,

the answer to your quoted question may be no.

For instance, humanly speaking, IF while the Israelites (Hebrews?) were in Egypt slaves, just before they were set free by YHWH's DOing,
if then an egyptian put blood on the door frame as directed by YHWH and as written in His Word,
at the TIME APPOINTED BY YHWH,
i.e. BEFORE the angel of death passed by,

would not the first-born have been spared?

Hmm...definitely something to chew on in as I continue to think on it.

 

[PropheticTimes]

My question regarding post-death was only one "possibility" trying to think outside the typical theological box - not my saying that's what it is. I'm of the understanding that everything is a foreshadow and in case of the feasts there's no question on that. That would include the second chance Passover. I think there's something more there that needs to be studied and understood from a believers standpoint. I know that there's extensive commentary on it in the Jewish writings, but I'm trying to understand it from a perspective of believers. The first four feasts were literally completed while Yeshua was still he and the last three will be completed when He returns. The second Passover would have occurred after the first 4 feasts so does that mean there's something in between the two comings potentially?? I'm not sure. Really I'm just trying to noodle through it.

I will respectfully disagree that the laws are no longer "needed". I'm getting off in the weeds a bit, and it would probably need to be a completely different thread, but obedience is the difference between being holy and not being holy. We were gifted with righteousness through Yeshua's death. We should respond with action and that action is obedience. Obedience is how we become holy.

Contrary to western thought, righteousness and holiness are not synonymous. There's a reason the bride in Revelation has "prepared herself".

Obedience comes automatically when we abide in Christ. He has come to set us free from the yoke of slavery (the Laws of Moses), and if He sets us free we are free indeed. The entire NT is filled with warnings against "Judaizers", against Jewish Christians preaching that this-or-that law must be upheld and are labeled as "false teachers" which we are warned to stay away from.

Christ in us obeys YHWH's moral law, which must always be upheld.

I must agree with Jeff that the "second chance Passover" of Numbers 9 is not a foreshadowing of something to come, but rather a display of God's grace and mercy to those of OT times when it came to things beyond their control (i.e. tripping over/falling into a dead body, or some other happenstance uncleanliness).

 

[Aaron Rich]

I've pondered on this and studied it a little, but I figure I will put it out here to see what thoughts you all can offer.

So, Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, who died on Passover and took away the sins of all those that come to faith in Him. That's the Passover for the believer, right?

How then does Number 9 come into play?

If I am on a "long journey" in life to come to Yeshua, when is the opportunity missed and therefore in need of the "second Passover" opportunity?

Is that post-death some time? That would certainly contradict the vast majority of theologians...not that the Bible doesn't do that already on many other topics. I'm definitely learning to read it myself because most Chrisitian's theology and the Bible just don't line up. So please, can you offer every possible Scripture you have on the subject?

I realize that many of you errantly believe the "Old Testament" is outdated and we can ignore it. If you're that person, this question isn't for you. I would like to hear from those of you that consider yourselves observant of God's everlasting Torah.

I guess my boiled down question is when do we officially miss our first chance at participating in the "Passover lamb" that would then necessitate our second opportunity?

Let me ask it this way so you all may catch my meaning a little better. Has anyone reading this discovered the additional levels of meaning in this Number 9 text using HEBREW hermeneutics? "Discovered" can be any insight - from the Holy Spirit, reading an *intelligent* and *non-antisemitic* commentary, sermons you've heard, etc.

I'm NOT interested in GREEK hermeneutics the likes of which teaches one meaning and we're done - it's useless, pointless and a waste of time when reading Hebrew documents.

Peshat(literal) - Literal meaning is back in the day those men that were on a long journey or unfit to keep the Passover could then keep the Passover in the second month.

I'm looking for thoughts on the levels of meaning that fit into these:

Remez (hinting)
Derash (seek or commentary)
Sod (secret or hidden)

 

[Keath]

I've pondered on this and studied it a little, but I figure I will put it out here to see what thoughts you all can offer.

So, Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, who died on Passover and took away the sins of all those that come to faith in Him. That's the Passover for the believer, right?

How then does Number 9 come into play?

If I am on a "long journey" in life to come to Yeshua, when is the opportunity missed and therefore in need of the "second Passover" opportunity?

Is that post-death some time? That would certainly contradict the vast majority of theologians...not that the Bible doesn't do that already on many other topics. I'm definitely learning to read it myself because most Chrisitian's theology and the Bible just don't line up. So please, can you offer every possible Scripture you have on the subject?

I realize that many of you errantly believe the "Old Testament" is outdated and we can ignore it. If you're that person, this question isn't for you. I would like to hear from those of you that consider yourselves observant of God's everlasting Torah.

I guess my boiled down question is when do we officially miss our first chance at participating in the "Passover lamb" that would then necessitate our second opportunity?

I don't have any real opinions on this, but I'll throw out some ideas just for thoughts. Could it relate to the Millennial Temple (Ezekiel) in the future? Could it relate to a fulfillment of an event post 2nd coming during 1,000 years? Or even better, could it have had its fulfullment when the risen Christ finally got a chance to celebrate the passover with his disciples (that first passover he was being killed during the day on Nissan 14, when people were to slaughter their lambs for the passover, correct?)?

 

[Aaron Rich]

Obedience comes automatically when we abide in Christ. He has come to set us free from the yoke of slavery (the Laws of Moses), and if He sets us free we are free indeed. The entire NT is filled with warnings against "Judaizers", against Jewish Christians preaching that this-or-that law must be upheld and are labeled as "false teachers" which we are warned to stay away from.

Christ in us obeys YHWH's moral law, which must always be upheld.

I must agree with Jeff that the "second chance Passover" of Numbers 9 is not a foreshadowing of something to come, but rather a display of God's grace and mercy to those of OT times when it came to things beyond their control (i.e. tripping over/falling into a dead body, or some other happenstance uncleanliness).

Again, I respectfully disagree. Judaizers that the BIBLE was talking about was warning against Jews trying to force Gentile believers to A. Convert to be legally Jewish (proselyte) B. Jewish believers attempting to force Gentile believers to keep Rabbinic teachings that were optional.

There's A LOT more to this faith than typical Christianity teaches unfortunately and even more unfortunate - we lose A LOT by reading it in English. Teaching that anything in the Renewed Covenant Scriptures excuses us from obedience is faulty as is saying obedience comes automatically. There's a lot of professing "believers" that do a lot things that are definitely not obedient. Teaching against the Scriptures to any extent is included in that. I myself will strive to avoid being called "least in the Kingdom".

 

[Aaron Rich]

I don't have any real opinions on this, but I'll throw out some ideas just for thoughts. Could it relate to the Millennial Temple (Ezekiel) in the future? Could it relate to a fulfillment of an event post 2nd coming during 1,000 years? Or even better, could it have had its fulfullment when the risen Christ finally got a chance to celebrate the passover with his disciples (that first passover he was being killed during the day on Nissan 14, when people were to slaughter their lambs for the passover, correct?)?

I've been leaning toward something during the 1000 year Kingdom here on Earth. You other thoughts are intriguing though and will aid me in my pondering. Thank you so much for your thoughts!!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm looking for thoughts on the levels of meaning that fit into these:

Remez (hinting)
Derash (seek or commentary)
Sod (secret or hidden)

YHWH'S WISDOM IS HIDDEN from most all the world ,
perhaps in things like that , or not.

Note that the topic you broached though is directly contrary and opposed to YHWH,
so it is not a possibility to even consider and should not be discussed amongst ekklesia*. (since it has long ago been ruled out, and even just by reading in english the BIBLE, it is clear, by revelation of JESUS to believers in Him (ALL in Harmony, ALL Scripture, ALL that YHWH Reveals, perfectly, in Him) ....

*especially where it may cause others to stumble, (like on this forum), who already are doubting, or not knowing YHWH'S WORD, or JESUS....
and
where, like on any forum open to the evil world, those heresies are abundantly present and being foisted upon the unwary both young and old.