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Where's the profit?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Caedmon, Oct 27, 2002.

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  1. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
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    I've studied both Reformed and nonReformed views of predestination. After all that I've seen, a recurring question has developed that I would like an answer to...

    What does it matter? As long as we're living for God, what does it matter whether or not we know people are predestined for Heaven or whether or not we can lose salvation? How does it profit us to try to figure out something like this? How does it profit me to know exactly how it works versus leaving it up to God as a part of His Mystery? :confused:
     
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  2. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    The profit for me is that I am driven to study the word more.

    Take a look at the apostles and Jesus, and how they debated with different people and even themselves.

    The word says "a man sharpens another man like iron sharpens iron"
    The word also says, you are to talk about it when you get up and when you lie down, when go out and when you go in. Pretty much all the time, the word is so deep with so many secrets to help making your life better, and richer, with a personal relationship with God.
     
  3. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
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    But those passages talk about following the statutes of God, and thus avoiding sin. How does laboring over nonmoral issues enhance the quality of life for a Christian?
     
  4. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    I don't have my bible with to read that scripture better, but that is one area that you are to study.
    Jesus said that the two greatest laws are to love the Lord, and love your neighbor.
    One way to do this is to study the laws, that not only say don't sin, but say to do other things like praying and fasting to name two.
    Then you look at history in the bible, and see how wise men lived, and how the foolish did also.

    I read in a psalm by David, "I lie in bed and meditate on your laws"

    One example that happened to me this week was when a coworker who isn't saved told me about his insomnia.
    I asked him why he couldn't sleep, he said he wasn't able to since he stopped drinking.
    Immediatly a verse came to mind, "The wicked cannot sleep until they have done there evil deed for the day, but the sleep of the righteous is pleasant and sweet" Prov.

    The more you know God's word the closer God will get to you. This will give God oppurtunitys to talk to you throughout the day.
    While people are confused,lost and blind, God is talking to you and explaning why things are the way they are at that situation.
    This brings about a peace that surpasses all understanding.
    Thats why David said he could walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil.
     
  5. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
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    But that doesn't explain to me why believing or not believing in predestination benefits a Christian.

    But this is talking about laws to live by, not soteriology.

    I understand and can appreciate your example, but I don't understand how it addresses my question. I don't see how believing or not believing in predestination or OSAS can increase the amount of righteousness/holiness in a Christian.
     
  6. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

    +120
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Democrat
    IMHO, it does not matter in real life. A properly taught believer in OSAS or predestination will sin no more than a NOSAS Arminian.
     
  7. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

    +120
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    Single
    US-Democrat
  8. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Well for that specific questions I have two answer.

    1.Was the same thing I said in my previous posts, I talk about it and many other things to inspire me to read the bible and learn more.

    2.I don't believe in that point of view to the exstent that the calvonist do, so I think I should talk about it and learn.
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "what does it matter whether or not we know people are predestined for Heaven or whether or not we can lose salvation?"

    well...

    1. Many Christians are in the asylum becos they believe (they were told & they believed) that they had committed the unpardonable sin and 'lost' their salvation.

    2. Many Christians never enter "the rest" spoken of in Hebrews, bcos they are still trying to save themselves or work at keeping their salvation. For them heaven is not a guarantee.

    3. Many Christians, becos of pt 2, give up 'trying' and stay away from church.

    4. Christians who believe you still got to work to keep your salvation (lest you lose it) tend to become self-righteous and puffy towards others when they think they are doing a pretty good job.
     
  10. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    Christians who believe they cannot shipwreck their faith (1 Tim 1:19) can fall victim to lustful ease and lackadaisical acceptance of life as it is without a motivation for change, unless they are trying to please God through good works (which they cannot do either) and so fall into the same trap, losing the "feeling" of being saved in an effort to act like a child of God, or in polarity doing nothing at all, wallowing in a lifestyle which bears no cross and is sadly nominal.

    Sin is sin and it can and will trap you whereever you are. The soundest doctrine cannot save you...only Christ can.

    By this definition they are not Christian. They are not saved. And if they do not enter the "rest" which is heaven, they will go to the other place.

    The only way to lose salvation is to reject Christ. Yet, even those who were purchased by Christ can do this. (2 Peter 2:1)

    As to the original post...

    Doctrine is a moral issue. False doctrine is a lie. Lying is amoral. False doctrine does not enhance the life of a Christian, but rather, steals from it, and can lead to a falling away from the faith. It is imperative that we do not elaborate or steal from the Word of God. The final chapter of Revelation promises judgement and plagues upon anyone who does. That is why Paul admonished Timothy to watch his doctrine closely. It is good that Christians do the same. What is sad is that often in the debate process, like good children of the Enlightenment, we rely on our intellects and reasoning and then proceed to explain away passages which may contradict our own views. Rather, we ought to accept that there are some parts of Scripture which are paradoxical, predestination being one of them. Let me illustrate:

    The Bible is clear: God has chosen the elect. (take Romans 11:7 for example.) Yet the Bible is also clear that God does not want ANY to perish. It is not His will that any reject His gift of salvation. (2 Peter 3:9 is a good proof of that). Both Armeniaism (no election) and Calvinism (double predestination) have ways of purposefully ignoring one or the other of these passages which "seem" to contradict their point. But the fact is, both points are contradticted and to any atheist that would seem to be a contradiction in and of itself. But it is not so. The contradiction lies in our human intellect which, saved though we are, is still fallen and prey to our sin. Sometimes the answers God sends us are along the lines of, "I'm not telling you that yet." And I think that was the original point of this thread. But that hardly becomes an argument for casting aside all doctrinal differences. To do so is not only heresy, but a clear rejection of the Truth of the gospel. For Truth either is or is not True, and those things which are not true must be exposed for the lies they are. That is why the light has shown into the darkness to begin with, to display God for who He Truly is.

    There are those who claim Christ is only one of many ways to God. These would seem to be none moral issues to those who want to say "Love love love and just be who you are and be happy together," but in TRUTH these are the HIGHEST of moral issues, for those who are poisoned by these lies of false doctrine will miss out on the inheritance Christ is offering them.

    Now, before anyone gets angry, am I saying that Calvinists are not Christian? Surely not! But I am saying, as Paul did, that it is imperative that we watch our words and doctrine closely, and if we think we are standing firm, let us be careful that we do not fall. Let us not feel so secure in OUR salvation that we make grace an opportunity for sin, for it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But let us be IMMEASURABLY certain of CHRIST'S SALVATION which not one of us can earn. His cross is the only assurance we will ever need. It is our sin which condemns us, but it is Christ who saves.

    Peace to all who seek it: it comes in Christ.
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "Christians who believe they cannot shipwreck their faith (1 Tim 1:19) can fall victim to lustful ease and lackadaisical acceptance of life"

    My response wld be the same as Paul's critics "What shld we sin that grace may abound!" On the contrary, Christians who understnd and appreciate the grace of God wont wanna sin.

    "And if they do not enter the "rest" which is heaven, they will go to the other place."

    The rest is not in heaven. It is "resting" in the finished work of Christ -- being seated with him in the high heavens. not offering sacrifices daily for sins.
     
  12. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
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    I'm still not getting as clear an answer as I need as to just why it matters whether or not we are predestined. How does it benefit me one way or the other to know? Is it really going to affect the way I feel or act?
     
  13. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    The only response I can give is if it is not from God, it is not built on a firm foundation and will fail eventually. Maybe not for you, but perhaps for someone you teach. The only thing we are to teach is the truth, and if two views are in opposition to one another, one, the other, or both are wrong, and therefore not of God. I really struggled with this question, myself. I pray your questions get answered as much as they can.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  14. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
    Joe, the reality is that it DOES NOT MATTER ! I agree with you.

    Regardless of if I am predestined or not, I will still decide to read my bible, to pray, and to obey. I am gonna follow Christ all my days regardless of whether is was predestined, regardless of whether or not I can lose my slavation, or anything else. I am in this race for the long hall. I believe in Jesus, and I WILL follow him. None of it the theological things matter so long as you follow Jesus. I still debate on those issues, but I always throw it in that no matter what the truth is, I still decide to follow Christ, which I am going to do anyway. I can see how it would matter so someone who is looking for a reason to follow Jesus, but not for us belivers who have sold ourselves to him.
     
  15. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

    +3,034
    Catholic
    Private
    I think the reason that I personally find it necessary to defend OSNAS is because I believe that the doctrines of Eternal Security and OSAS lead people to believe that they can fall into deliberate sin and still be saved.  If they do this, they are considered to be backslidden and still saved or 'not having ever been saved to begin with'....either way I find it erroneous and I believe that the Bible teaches that people who knew the truth and then forsook it are worse off than those who never knew the way.  In a nutshell, I worry about the people who walk away from Christ believing they have a free ticket into heaven.

    Michelle
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "I'm still not getting as clear an answer as I need as to just why it matters whether or not we are predestined. How does it benefit me one way or the other to know? Is it really going to affect the way I feel or act?"

    Well firstly, you gotta ask yourself: If it aint important and doesnt make a diff, why is it in the Bible? To fill up space?

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    For me, these scriptures are every encouraging and shows me the amazing grace of God. Do you know that you are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son! There's no way out bro! Do you know that God actually knew all about you even before you existed! that's awesome! Do you know that you were called by Him, have been justified and glorified!

    so can we brush all this aside and say "heck I dont care!"?
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    " I believe that the doctrines of Eternal Security and OSAS lead people to believe that they can fall into deliberate sin and still be saved.Ê"

    Do you know that Paul had the exact same response from his critics when he preached about God's grace? People then asked him:"If you preach this, then what!, shall we go out and sin?! that grace may abound!?" So you are actually on the same side as Paul's critics. And do you think Paul then changed the gospel of grace to something else?

    A person who is touched by God's grace and saved does not continue sinning habitually, that's plain scripture. So your hypothesis just doesnt hold water put against scripture.

    1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
     
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