Where's God?

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cvanwey

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Actually not all killing is illegal, only murder is illegal. Killing in a justified war and in self defense is not illegal. Also, capital punishment for murder is legal under God's law.

I already acknowledged the exceptions for 'killing.'


Yes, generally. 75 years ago most of America's marriage laws matched biblical law pretty well.

A loveless marriage (and/or) later found incompatibility 15 years later should render an illegal separation? What about an arranged marriage? Is the wife not allowed to leave, as long as the man provides core services?

A ordinary first time reader may not be able to determine that, but we know from studying history that that is how ancient jewish rabbis taught at the time. You should always take the historical context into consideration when interpreting the bible.

Wouldn't Jesus know that future generations would read the same Bible. Shouldn't God's word be universal and unchanging? Furthermore, does God have the ability to provide clarity. It's safe to say many Christians do not re-read their Bible again and again. Seems as though God would want to be crystal clear, as to not turn away would-be prospects from the faith.

In some cases it may be appropriate to literally turn the other cheek, but generally Christ is talking about attitude in these verses, an attitude of non retaliation and an attitude of generosity. These verses must be understood in the historical context that I mentioned above and also in the context of the whole bible. Christ also said we are to be as crafty as a serpent and as gentle as a dove. IOW we are to be generous but not to the point where we are taken advantage of. If we followed the verses literally all the time we would be taken advantage of. And especially if we had a family, we would hurt our family and the bible plainly teaches that if you dont take care of your family you are worse than an unbeliever.
*******BTW, whenever you quote the bible please provide the name of the Book and the Chapter. I dont have the whole bible memorized and so I need to go back and read the entire context of the verses you quote in order to properly interpret them.******Just quoting the verses I have no idea where they are in context.

I'll ask again...

If you are to use your own common sense, in knowing which verses are to be translated in 'hyperbole'/other, then why do we need the Bible for our morals to begin with..?



Yes, this is another case of rabbinic hyperbole to emphasize how important it is to take care of your family. Not taking care of your family can result in eternal damnation too if you dont repent of it.

You are a little off here. Yes, repent is required. But all sin is BAD to God. Hence, the reason salvation comes by belief/faith/repent, not works - (according to main stream beliefs anyways).... The absolute worse sin begins with unbelief. Virtually everything else can be forgiven.

This basically renders 'morals' superfluous, as belief is an amoral construct. Which is yet another piece in the 'web of confusion' puzzle.








Of course, Christians are to strive to be like Christ, though since we are still sinners we often fail. Actually I have had my character slandered, and did thank God that I was worthy to suffer for my faith.
In fact, I have had my character slandered on this website! ;-)

I find it 'interesting' that some Christians seem to think that the more they act as a martyr for their faith, the more they think are demonstrating their faith.


He is referring to the ceremonial laws in this quote. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial laws and they ended with His death and resurrection. But the moral laws are still in effect this is seen in the writings of Paul and John.

No. He is not.

Don't get me wrong, I was actually on your side here, when I was a Christian. I thought the same thing. However, please demonstrate where He is specifying that, not only was He not speaking about ceremonial laws exclusively, but that He also did not mean what He said, when He stated "until everything is accomplished.'

Everything is not accomplished, and Heaven is forever. See below...


From Matthew 5

"17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."





No, it is obvious that it does not literally apply to every believer, because it would violate His other teachings that I mentioned above about taking care of your family. If you gave away all your possessions your family would die homeless and starving. The ATTITUDE toward your possessions DOEs apply to all believers.

That's a contradiction YOU have to reconcile, not me. Please re-read the Verses in context. How do YOU know the Verses mentioned do not apply to YOU? Maybe the fact that you do not give away all, means your faith is weak. He also says in places, you must love God above all else.

There, I just solved your contradiction. The Verses I mentioned are more important than the ones which state to take care of your family ;)






No, verse 33 is rabbinic hyperbole, taking these literally would violate His other teachings such as not to hate and taking care of your family. The key teaching in most of this is attitude. Christ is your top priority but that does not mean you neglect your family. In fact, if you did not take care of your family it would be evidence that you do not have Christ as your top priority because you are disobeying Him!
But you should not let your family dominate everything you do and not put them on a pedestal. This is results in spoiling your kids, which is not good for them.

Please see directly above. And also again:

If you are to use your own common sense, in knowing which verses are to be translated in 'hyperbole'/other, then why do we need the Bible for our morals to begin with..?
 
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miknik5

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Are you still at it?
Wow...

Here is something to contemplate

The secrets of the Kingdom have been given to you...

This is TRUTH, sir.

What you can´t understand is kept from you...please don´t teach those to whom the secrets have been given...you will just keep talking in circles and what is spiritually discerned can only be discerned by those born of HIS SPIRIT.


Sorry
 
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doubtingmerle

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please don´t teach those to whom the secrets have been given...you will just keep talking in circles and what is spiritually discerned can only be discerned by those born of HIS SPIRIT.

If it seems that I am talking in circles, that is because my discussion partner is running in circles. Every time I turn to face him, he appears to be 180 degrees opposite. I'm going to get dizzy trying to follow this guy!
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Instead of playing Where's Waldo, let's play Where's God. In the picture below, where's God?

57638c0d-a772-4f6e-bec5-996444093956_1920x1080.jpg
Well I had a good look and found him a few times, possibly as many as 8. Not bad eh?
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: If there was evidence that the god you believed in did those things then yes I would accept it.
cv: If your God does exist, He is watching all, already knows all, and cares not to stop or intervene in all. Agreed?
True, sometimes He intervenes sometimes He does not, but there is always a good reason for everything He does. It is not arbitrary.

ed: But there is no evidence that any other god can bring good out of evil, but there is evidence the Christian God can. First of all death itself is required for all humans since we are all sinners or have sinful natures, including children. Why particular children die more painful deaths than others we dont usually know.

cv: If YHWH exists, I would agree with your assertion(s), as given. However... See below...


ed: Such bad events are always a possibility in a free will, primarily natural law universe like ours which God purposely created with those characteristics in order to eventually destroy evil forever.

cv: HOW does 'free will' apply here???? This makes no sense sir. A child does not have 'free will' to receive a disease/virus. A child does not have 'free will' to be the victim of rape/torture/murder. The child does not have 'free will' to decide to starve. The 'free will' would only apply to the other end - the virus/disease, the child's attacker, or the child's environment, in such scenarios. The 'victim' lacks the 'free will' in such cases.
Of course, I am referring to the free will of the evil doer. And the disease operates according to natural law.

cv: Furthermore, if God is eventually going to destroy evil forever, as you assert, what lesson in theodicy would a 3-year-old child learn, prior to his/her death?
We dont know, probably nothing. But they will learn when they enter into Paradise.


ed: And not having an answer is actually evidence that the Christian God is not made up by humans.

cv: I beg to differ. You appear to be making them up, as I read them. I have yet to figure out if you actually believe what you are saying here, or are just invoking typical apologetics ticks? And by apologetics, I mean, you are going to defend your client/god, no-matter-what; like a fancy defense lawyer :)
No, everything I have said is either in the Bible or derived from biblical teaching. None of it is made up. Of course I believe it. I am not defending God, He doesnt need it, but He has commanded us to defend His truth and that is what I am doing.


ed: Man made gods have an answer for everything.

cv: Then I guess that settles it. Christian apologists have answers for every 'problem'; including the 'problem of evil.' I guess that means Christianity is also 'man made'?
No, we discussed something above that Christians dont have an answer for, why do some children die more painful deaths than other children?

ed: Christians dont have an answer for everything because our God is the actual God whose actions are often inscrutable because He is in some ways but not all the Supreme Other.

cv: Just because you do not feel like you may not have an answer to a particular question, does not mean the Christian next to you also does not ;) Please do an internet search for 'the problem of evil'.
See above an unanswered question. And there are many others, but He has also told us many answers as well.

ed: But He tells us that most of our questions will be answered in the next life.
How convenient ;) That doesn't sound 'man made' or anything at all....

ed: But in the afterlife if children die before the age of accountability they are welcomed into heaven after their death because they have generally not intentionally sinned as all humans who have reached the age of accountability have.

cv: Great, then the most altruistic thing to do, would be to abort all pregnancies. This way, your would-be child is guaranteed the likes of heaven. This would be 'true love'.
No, because the child will get greater rewards for spiritual growth if they live a longer life and will help accomplish the ultimate goal of destroying evil forever sooner.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Look again. Those aren't gods. They are people.
The OP asked where God was in the picture, not where gods were, nor whether they could be seen.

Seems to be a bit of a leading question without understanding anything about God.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Spiritual problems are similar to medical problems. The treatment is specific to the disease, e.g. penicillin does not help cancer.
So you are saying that there are things god wants to use to grow us that must involve pain and suffering?

We know it from His communication to us and His followers have made claims about what has happened in those situations. Depends on what you call a demonstration, if you are referring to a scientific demonstration then no. Just like you cant demonstrate scientifically that you love your wife.
I am not asking for absolute proof, I am asking for sufficient evidence. Claims are not evidence. There is sufficient evidence to show that I love my wife, at least she thinks so.

The right to practice your religion without persecution is a Christian principle. What gay rights? There is no right to engage in immoral behavior.
You have the right in the US to practice your religion. You don't have the right to use it to limit others rights. And yes, in the US we have the right to act immorally as long as it does not affect others rights. Why do you think you should limit a persons right to marriage because of your morality? What about gay marriage infringes on your rights?

Humanism allows you to engage in promiscuous and risky sex, thereby increasing your chances of contracting STDs and destroying your marriage, Christianity does not.
It actually doesn't, but it seems you have not studied humanism.

Humanism says nothing about eating healthy and taking care of your body, thereby increasing your chances to have other health problems, Christianity does.
Humanists talk about proper healthy diet and actually use the science to promote good health, they promote basic health care for all, Christianity does not.

Christian principles can reduce the suffering and death of unborn humans, humanism cannot.
Untrue. There are many pro-life humanists like myself.

Humanism didn't end slavery, Christianity did. I could name many other examples.
Christianity promoted slavery humanism did not.
 
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BigV

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Actually not all killing is illegal, only murder is illegal. Killing in a justified war and in self defense is not illegal. Also, capital punishment for murder is legal under God's law.

Murder was also legal under God's law.

Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

Seems pretty random to me.

Numbers 31: 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

So, killing kids, women and men is not a problem for God. Seems like you are splitting hairs with "illegal" murders.
 
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doubtingmerle

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The OP asked where God was in the picture, not where gods were, nor whether they could be seen.

Seems to be a bit of a leading question without understanding anything about God.
It is a very simple question. The man in the picture is suffering. Many people are helping. Where is God?
 
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Ed1wolf

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No, ALL Hebrew men were commanded by God to learn the law, write it down, and memorize it (Deuteronomy 11:18-21). During the periods when they were obeying God, the ancient Hebrews were probably the most literate nation on earth at the time. And the ones that could not read were read to every Sabbath by the priests.

cv: Then your provided verse is demonstrably false. Most were illiterate. Many could not write anything down. As I stated prior, the slaves were the uneducated ones. Hence, many were likely led to 'suffer', via to slavery - by way of trickery, followed by beating, etc... All condoned from the Bible.

Evidence that most were illiterate? But even if true it is irrelevant to my argument, God commanded them to teach them if they failed to do so it was not the fault of His law because His law commanded them to do so. They were being disobedient if they did not teach them His laws. If they had followed His law the person volunteering to be enslaved would have known about how the giving of a wife would have impacted the length of his slavery.

ed: No, there was no deception or trapping, see above.

cv: Yes there was, see above. Also see Leviticus 25.

Where in Leviticus 25 is there deception and trapping?


ed: That was only stated because the year of Jubilee only occurred every 50 years which would be life for many.
cv: You are now tripping all over yourself. In the prior response, you stated "no, the stake would not be permanent, in the year of Jubilee ALL slaves were freed." If we knew most did not live that long, then it might as well be life. It would be like sentencing a modern day 70-year-old to 30 years in prison. Hence, the jubilee thingy need not be mentioned, right?
Well it depended on when the indenture took place in relation to the year of Jubilee if it was just a year before Jubilee then he would only be a slave for a year, but of course, he can always go back to the master after the jubilee and then it would be forever.

cv: Furthermore, there exists other verse, which states to keep slaves for life. It also distinguishes between Israelites and non-Israelites:

‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Even they were freed in the year of jubilee, read Leviticus 25:10, liberty shall be proclaimed to ALL the inhabitants of the land. Even the foreign slaves. Hebrew slaves could be freed on the Sabbath year, ie every 6 years. So yes they were treated slightly differently. Unlike the Jubilee they were not required to be freed however.

ed: I did address it, first this only applied to women in slavery not all women. And second under the New covenant they would be allowed to go free because the husband and wife are one flesh, a unity, and cannot be separated under the New Covenant.

cv: No you did not. You stated that slavery was reserved for prisoners and/or indentured servants. I have shown this is not the case. You refuse to acknowledge this 'fact.' You are be-bopp'n and skit-skat'n all around it :)

- Provided wives are slaves forever.
- The slave's children are to remain with the slave master forever.
- We also see that Leviticus 25 demonstrates that if the 'slaves comes from around you', you can keep them for life.
No not necessarily, see above.

ed:I did not deny these things under the Old Covenant, but this applied only for underage women in their fathers household. I do not deny that Fathers have almost total control of their minor daughters. Not when they became adults, as Genesis 1:27 teaches an adult woman was spiritually equal to men, both are created in the image of the Creator and King of the universe.

cv: Did Jesus abolish slavery in the NT? The answer is no. Now merely compare this to the 13th amendment. This alone demonstrates that continuing to live under Christian values would cause one to likely 'suffer' more. We have instead moved away from such allowances.

We no longer allow voluntary servitude that is correct but in ancient times they didnt have social security or welfare, but it worked quite well for them at the time. Old people could still be around other people instead of being left alone living off their social security. They could impart their wisdom rather than sitting alone in an apartment. And the younger servants could eventually work and gain experience of different types of jobs for their eventual freedom. Most people on welfare dont do that.

cv: Furthermore, Jesus did not really say much of anything to recant the prior assertions of the OT, specifically regarding slavery. And please remember, the law was different between a free person, verses a slave.

You are correct He did not condemn the voluntary slavery of the hebrews because He and His father came up with it as a social security system for ancient times. No, as human beings created in the image of God, they had to be treated justly even though they were servants. The judges were required to make sure of that.

cv: And no, men and women are never equal. Not even 'now' in the NT. Please reference 1 Timothy 2:11-15 again. There appears no valid reason for a women not to be allowed as a head pastor, priest, minister, etc... See below...

No, they are equal just as you and your boss are both equal under the law. Just because you have different roles in the company does not make your boss inherently superior to you. Also, just because women can have babies does not make them superior and nor does men not being able to make them inferior. They are different roles. A man can never be a mother and a woman can never be a father.

ed: We dont know exactly though science has proven that men and women are mentally different, part of the reason could be those differences.

cv: The Bible gives it's reason:

"Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Yes, that is one of the reasons but not the only reason. There are also reasons in his other book Nature as I explain below.

cv: Seems bazaar that an all powerful God would resort to such reason, doesn't it? And I doubt it has anything to do with our later findings in science. And furthermore, if you admit science can get us somewhere, then you must then also acknowledge that both men and women can lead equally as well.
;)
Not when you understand the extreme seriousness of that first sin. It affected all of humanity including men. Actually, science and history have shown that generally men DO make better leaders than women. That doesnt mean that some women are not good leaders, even in the Bible Deborah was a great leader of Israel. But usually men do make better leaders, apparently God designed them that way. Or even if you are not a believer maybe evolution did it as shown by evolutionary psychologist Dr. Jordan Peterson.

 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: No, in most cases it is voluntary and not forever. As I demonstrated above. And beating was only allowed for acts deemed serious enough to justified by the judges.

cv: You are again just flat wrong.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

But they were not allowed to do any permanent damage. The eye for eye law still applied even to slaves. Which means the punishment had to equal the crime for both the master and the slave. If the slave recovers for a day or two and dies later after two days that means he may have already had a pre existing condition, remember they didnt have x-rays and MRIs back then.

cv: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly

See my previous post where I deal with these verses.

cv: Please show me where it states the specific parameters and circumstances for which you are, and are not allowed, to beat your slaves? Again, remember, the free and the slaves did not reside under the exact same laws. Slaves were PROPERTY. Heck, even the Israelite slaves had differing rules applied towards them, verses the rest of the slaves.
See above about how the eye for eye law applied to both slaves and masters. A judge would make the final decision of the punishment. You could beat them but no permanent physical or mental damage was allowed, ie eye for eye tooth for tooth applied, but not necessarily literally. The judge could impose a fine. While they were called property, they could not be treated like property because of Genesis 1:27.


ed: Yes, by Christians utilizing the principles I stated above.

cv: The Bible makes absolutely no effort to abolish slavery. Countries did that on their own. Hence, under Christian values, more might still 'suffer'.
It does not allow involuntary slavery except for prisoners and POWs just like the American Constitution.
If you consider voluntary slavery during economic hard times suffering then maybe so but actually it usually alleviated suffering during economic crises for many hundreds of years. But it does not allow anything like chattel slavery.

ed: Yes, based on the Christian principle that all humans are equally created in the image of God.

cv: If that were the case, special rules would not be created for specific genders. See above...
Just because each gender has a different role does not make one of them of any less intrinsic value, see my boss and employee analogy.


cv: No, because as I explained to doubtingmerle, there would be less STDs, people would be heathier, children would be healthier because families would stay together longer because of lower divorce rates, and etc. In addition, as a side note there would be a rational basis for human rights unlike secular humanism.

cv: None of this is true. Even Christianity recognizes that humans are sinners. Spouses would still cheat, leading to STD's. Christians still have premarital sex, leading to STD's. Staying in a 'bad' marriage is not healthy. Staying in a loveless marriage is not healthy. It also sets a poor example for your kids.
Scientific studies have shown that devout Christians that go to church on a regular basis, ie two or more times a month have less STDs, less divorces, happier marriages than people that dont go to church on a regular basis or dont go at all. And their children are better prepared for life and if they homeschool do much better in college.

cv: And please do not get me stated upon the 'moral argument'. Common sense suggests 'morals' are actually grounded by homeostasis (Maslow's hierarchy), consequentialism, cooperation, game theory, empathy, evolution (tribalism), reciprocal altruism, humans being extremely altricial, and elders teaching the younger ones how to co-exist in society, which all keeps the anarchy at bay.
All of those moral theories are based on irrational sentimentality for the primate homo sapiens if there is no God.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Wait, now your God wants people to suffer because it does a greater good? You keep going back and forth on this. God does not want suffering. But he wants it because it does a greater good. But he does not want it. But he wants it. But he does not want it. But he...

Arguing with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall. Would you pick a position , please, and stick with it?
No, I never said He WANTS suffering for a greater good, I said He ALLOWS suffering for a greater good.
 
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Ed1wolf

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I disagree with your take on the Bible. The Bible teaches that if you have faith, nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 17:20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

No, Christ is referring to spiritual mountains in these verses. Humans can move literal mountains, ever hear of an atomic bomb? Moving spiritual mountains is much more difficult even impossible for humans. Yes God will answer every prayer, not always the way we think but He was talking about whatever spiritual problem you may have God will help you over come it.

bv: These are just some examples. I think what you meant to say, is that the Bible is "interpreted" as teaching that God generally operates according to natural law.
No, it actually teaches that, read Jeremiah 33:25, among others.
 
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doubtingmerle

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No, I never said He WANTS suffering for a greater good

Now you run to the other side of the ring?

OK, your God does not want the man in the OP to suffer. Even if suffering brings a greater good, God does not want that man to suffer. He could have wanted the man to suffer and experience that greater good, but you have said God does not want that man to suffer. He does not want the "greater good" that would come through suffering. He wants the suffering to stop.

If God does not want the man to suffer, why does he not stop it?

(I am guessing you will run back to the first side of the ring, yes?)
 
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cvanwey

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True, sometimes He intervenes sometimes He does not, but there is always a good reason for everything He does. It is not arbitrary.

If He does not give His reason(s), then you do not know whether or not His reasons are arbitrary. You are merely making an assumption, or applying a hope.

Of course, I am referring to the free will of the evil doer. And the disease operates according to natural law.

Then freewill need not be mentioned, as it is completely irrelevant here.

We dont know, probably nothing. But they will learn when they enter into Paradise.

I asked what is the necessity of a small child being tortured to death serve. And also, what lesson in theodicy might they learn?

Your statement above is then false. Why? Because of your response above, compared to the one directly below. (i.e.) Please reference the statements in bold.

"but there is always a good reason for everything He does. It is not arbitrary."

No, everything I have said is either in the Bible or derived from biblical teaching. None of it is made up. Of course I believe it. I am not defending God, He doesnt need it, but He has commanded us to defend His truth and that is what I am doing.

Another contradiction. You stated God does not give answers to everything. You are defending things for which He gives no pronouncement about. ---> The 'problem of evil....' You assert that He cannot be arbitrary, and then trip all over yourself. You also state we do not have all the answers.

No, because the child will get greater rewards for spiritual growth if they live a longer life and will help accomplish the ultimate goal of destroying evil forever sooner.

You just tripped over yourself again. I asked, why not abort all pregnancies to assure your offspring end up in heaven? Compare your answer above, with the one you stated prior - given below.


"We dont know, probably nothing. But they will learn when they enter into Paradise."

A child can pass-go, directly to heaven, and get their learning in as they go, even according to you.

Thus, true altruism would be to abort all offspring to guarantee heavenly destination.
 
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BigV

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No, Christ is referring to spiritual mountains in these verses.

That's nothing then. Faith in me can move spiritual mountains also. Spiritual superpowers are actually nothing fancy. Moving a spiritual mountain is so easy, a caveman can do it.
 
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durangodawood

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"Where can I go from your spirit?
Or where can I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there."

Psalms 139: 7–8
....
This sounds just as if God is actually your own clear conscience. You cant outrun it.
 
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