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Where's God?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by doubtingmerle, Jun 27, 2020.

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  1. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I already acknowledged the exceptions for 'killing.'




    A loveless marriage (and/or) later found incompatibility 15 years later should render an illegal separation? What about an arranged marriage? Is the wife not allowed to leave, as long as the man provides core services?



    Wouldn't Jesus know that future generations would read the same Bible. Shouldn't God's word be universal and unchanging? Furthermore, does God have the ability to provide clarity. It's safe to say many Christians do not re-read their Bible again and again. Seems as though God would want to be crystal clear, as to not turn away would-be prospects from the faith.

    I'll ask again...

    If you are to use your own common sense, in knowing which verses are to be translated in 'hyperbole'/other, then why do we need the Bible for our morals to begin with..?



    You are a little off here. Yes, repent is required. But all sin is BAD to God. Hence, the reason salvation comes by belief/faith/repent, not works - (according to main stream beliefs anyways).... The absolute worse sin begins with unbelief. Virtually everything else can be forgiven.

    This basically renders 'morals' superfluous, as belief is an amoral construct. Which is yet another piece in the 'web of confusion' puzzle.








    I find it 'interesting' that some Christians seem to think that the more they act as a martyr for their faith, the more they think are demonstrating their faith.




    No. He is not.

    Don't get me wrong, I was actually on your side here, when I was a Christian. I thought the same thing. However, please demonstrate where He is specifying that, not only was He not speaking about ceremonial laws exclusively, but that He also did not mean what He said, when He stated "until everything is accomplished.'

    Everything is not accomplished, and Heaven is forever. See below...


    From Matthew 5

    "17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."







    That's a contradiction YOU have to reconcile, not me. Please re-read the Verses in context. How do YOU know the Verses mentioned do not apply to YOU? Maybe the fact that you do not give away all, means your faith is weak. He also says in places, you must love God above all else.

    There, I just solved your contradiction. The Verses I mentioned are more important than the ones which state to take care of your family ;)






    Please see directly above. And also again:

    If you are to use your own common sense, in knowing which verses are to be translated in 'hyperbole'/other, then why do we need the Bible for our morals to begin with..?
     
  2. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Are you still at it?
    Wow...

    Here is something to contemplate

    The secrets of the Kingdom have been given to you...

    This is TRUTH, sir.

    What you can´t understand is kept from you...please don´t teach those to whom the secrets have been given...you will just keep talking in circles and what is spiritually discerned can only be discerned by those born of HIS SPIRIT.


    Sorry
     
  3. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    If it seems that I am talking in circles, that is because my discussion partner is running in circles. Every time I turn to face him, he appears to be 180 degrees opposite. I'm going to get dizzy trying to follow this guy!
     
  4. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Here is a video of this thread. I keep walking forward, only to find that my opponent ran to the other side of the ring!
     
  5. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Well I had a good look and found him a few times, possibly as many as 8. Not bad eh?
     
  6. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Look again. Those aren't gods. They are people.
     
  7. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    True, sometimes He intervenes sometimes He does not, but there is always a good reason for everything He does. It is not arbitrary.

    Of course, I am referring to the free will of the evil doer. And the disease operates according to natural law.

    We dont know, probably nothing. But they will learn when they enter into Paradise.


    No, everything I have said is either in the Bible or derived from biblical teaching. None of it is made up. Of course I believe it. I am not defending God, He doesnt need it, but He has commanded us to defend His truth and that is what I am doing.


    No, we discussed something above that Christians dont have an answer for, why do some children die more painful deaths than other children?

    See above an unanswered question. And there are many others, but He has also told us many answers as well.

    No, because the child will get greater rewards for spiritual growth if they live a longer life and will help accomplish the ultimate goal of destroying evil forever sooner.
     
  8. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    The OP asked where God was in the picture, not where gods were, nor whether they could be seen.

    Seems to be a bit of a leading question without understanding anything about God.
     
  9. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that there are things god wants to use to grow us that must involve pain and suffering?

    I am not asking for absolute proof, I am asking for sufficient evidence. Claims are not evidence. There is sufficient evidence to show that I love my wife, at least she thinks so.

    You have the right in the US to practice your religion. You don't have the right to use it to limit others rights. And yes, in the US we have the right to act immorally as long as it does not affect others rights. Why do you think you should limit a persons right to marriage because of your morality? What about gay marriage infringes on your rights?

    It actually doesn't, but it seems you have not studied humanism.

    Humanists talk about proper healthy diet and actually use the science to promote good health, they promote basic health care for all, Christianity does not.

    Untrue. There are many pro-life humanists like myself.

    Christianity promoted slavery humanism did not.
     
  10. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    Murder was also legal under God's law.

    Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

    Seems pretty random to me.

    Numbers 31: 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    So, killing kids, women and men is not a problem for God. Seems like you are splitting hairs with "illegal" murders.
     
  11. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    It is a very simple question. The man in the picture is suffering. Many people are helping. Where is God?
     
  12. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    Evidence that most were illiterate? But even if true it is irrelevant to my argument, God commanded them to teach them if they failed to do so it was not the fault of His law because His law commanded them to do so. They were being disobedient if they did not teach them His laws. If they had followed His law the person volunteering to be enslaved would have known about how the giving of a wife would have impacted the length of his slavery.

    Where in Leviticus 25 is there deception and trapping?


    Well it depended on when the indenture took place in relation to the year of Jubilee if it was just a year before Jubilee then he would only be a slave for a year, but of course, he can always go back to the master after the jubilee and then it would be forever.

    Even they were freed in the year of jubilee, read Leviticus 25:10, liberty shall be proclaimed to ALL the inhabitants of the land. Even the foreign slaves. Hebrew slaves could be freed on the Sabbath year, ie every 6 years. So yes they were treated slightly differently. Unlike the Jubilee they were not required to be freed however.

    No not necessarily, see above.

    We no longer allow voluntary servitude that is correct but in ancient times they didnt have social security or welfare, but it worked quite well for them at the time. Old people could still be around other people instead of being left alone living off their social security. They could impart their wisdom rather than sitting alone in an apartment. And the younger servants could eventually work and gain experience of different types of jobs for their eventual freedom. Most people on welfare dont do that.

    You are correct He did not condemn the voluntary slavery of the hebrews because He and His father came up with it as a social security system for ancient times. No, as human beings created in the image of God, they had to be treated justly even though they were servants. The judges were required to make sure of that.

    No, they are equal just as you and your boss are both equal under the law. Just because you have different roles in the company does not make your boss inherently superior to you. Also, just because women can have babies does not make them superior and nor does men not being able to make them inferior. They are different roles. A man can never be a mother and a woman can never be a father.

    Yes, that is one of the reasons but not the only reason. There are also reasons in his other book Nature as I explain below.

    Not when you understand the extreme seriousness of that first sin. It affected all of humanity including men. Actually, science and history have shown that generally men DO make better leaders than women. That doesnt mean that some women are not good leaders, even in the Bible Deborah was a great leader of Israel. But usually men do make better leaders, apparently God designed them that way. Or even if you are not a believer maybe evolution did it as shown by evolutionary psychologist Dr. Jordan Peterson.

     
  13. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    He's behind you.
     
  14. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    But they were not allowed to do any permanent damage. The eye for eye law still applied even to slaves. Which means the punishment had to equal the crime for both the master and the slave. If the slave recovers for a day or two and dies later after two days that means he may have already had a pre existing condition, remember they didnt have x-rays and MRIs back then.

    See my previous post where I deal with these verses.

    See above about how the eye for eye law applied to both slaves and masters. A judge would make the final decision of the punishment. You could beat them but no permanent physical or mental damage was allowed, ie eye for eye tooth for tooth applied, but not necessarily literally. The judge could impose a fine. While they were called property, they could not be treated like property because of Genesis 1:27.


    It does not allow involuntary slavery except for prisoners and POWs just like the American Constitution.
    If you consider voluntary slavery during economic hard times suffering then maybe so but actually it usually alleviated suffering during economic crises for many hundreds of years. But it does not allow anything like chattel slavery.

    Just because each gender has a different role does not make one of them of any less intrinsic value, see my boss and employee analogy.


    Scientific studies have shown that devout Christians that go to church on a regular basis, ie two or more times a month have less STDs, less divorces, happier marriages than people that dont go to church on a regular basis or dont go at all. And their children are better prepared for life and if they homeschool do much better in college.

    All of those moral theories are based on irrational sentimentality for the primate homo sapiens if there is no God.
     
  15. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    No, I never said He WANTS suffering for a greater good, I said He ALLOWS suffering for a greater good.
     
  16. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    No, Christ is referring to spiritual mountains in these verses. Humans can move literal mountains, ever hear of an atomic bomb? Moving spiritual mountains is much more difficult even impossible for humans. Yes God will answer every prayer, not always the way we think but He was talking about whatever spiritual problem you may have God will help you over come it.

    No, it actually teaches that, read Jeremiah 33:25, among others.
     
  17. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Now you run to the other side of the ring?

    OK, your God does not want the man in the OP to suffer. Even if suffering brings a greater good, God does not want that man to suffer. He could have wanted the man to suffer and experience that greater good, but you have said God does not want that man to suffer. He does not want the "greater good" that would come through suffering. He wants the suffering to stop.

    If God does not want the man to suffer, why does he not stop it?

    (I am guessing you will run back to the first side of the ring, yes?)
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    If He does not give His reason(s), then you do not know whether or not His reasons are arbitrary. You are merely making an assumption, or applying a hope.

    Then freewill need not be mentioned, as it is completely irrelevant here.

    I asked what is the necessity of a small child being tortured to death serve. And also, what lesson in theodicy might they learn?

    Your statement above is then false. Why? Because of your response above, compared to the one directly below. (i.e.) Please reference the statements in bold.

    "but there is always a good reason for everything He does. It is not arbitrary."

    Another contradiction. You stated God does not give answers to everything. You are defending things for which He gives no pronouncement about. ---> The 'problem of evil....' You assert that He cannot be arbitrary, and then trip all over yourself. You also state we do not have all the answers.


    You just tripped over yourself again. I asked, why not abort all pregnancies to assure your offspring end up in heaven? Compare your answer above, with the one you stated prior - given below.


    "We dont know, probably nothing. But they will learn when they enter into Paradise."

    A child can pass-go, directly to heaven, and get their learning in as they go, even according to you.

    Thus, true altruism would be to abort all offspring to guarantee heavenly destination.
     
  19. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    That's nothing then. Faith in me can move spiritual mountains also. Spiritual superpowers are actually nothing fancy. Moving a spiritual mountain is so easy, a caveman can do it.
     
  20. durangodawood

    durangodawood Dis Member

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    This sounds just as if God is actually your own clear conscience. You cant outrun it.
     
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