Where we goin?

[Dartman]

Dartman, do you see any connection between these two passages?

Revelation 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said to me, “Mortal, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are cut off completely.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: I am going to open your graves, and bring you up from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and bring you up from your graves, O my people. 14 I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you on your own soil; then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken and will act, says the Lord.”

The prophecy in Eze 37 is specifically to "the whole house of Israel", and explains in prophetic form, the restoration of that nation... all 12 tribes. This is going to happen DURING the 1,000 year reign, in fact, at the very beginning of Christ's reign.
The prophecy in Rev 20 indicates that anyone NOT included in the 1st resurrection, is going to stay dead, UNTIL the 1,000 years are over.

 

[Dartman]

Thanks for your response, Dartman

I too believe that we shall reign on the earth but way longer than 1000 years, more like 1000 generations if my understanding of scripture is correct.

Psalm 105:7 He is the Lord our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.
8 He is mindful of his covenant forever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant that he made with Abraham,
his sworn promise to Isaac,
10 which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
as your portion for an inheritance.”

The 1,000 year reign is Christ's government to rule over the mortal survivors of his 2nd coming. During that time period, Israel (all 12 tribes) will be fully restored to their land, and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David ... ALL the righteous .. will FINALLY inherit that land as a PERMANENT home. At the end of Christ's government, Satan will be loosed, and Satan will deceive the mortal descendants of those survivors into revolting against Jesus and his saints. That rebellion will be destroyed by fire, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Then ALL the wicked, who were NOT resurrected in the 1st resurrection, AND all the mortals that have died during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will be resurrected to judgment. Any righteous will be granted eternal life, and all the wicked, and Satan, and all the works, and all the heavens, "will melt with fervent heat"..... the 2nd heaven and earth will be destroyed by fire. (Rev 20, 2 Peter 3)
God then "makes all things new"... He RENEWS the heavens and the earth. God sends the "holy city New Jerusalem" FROM His presence in heaven, TO the earth. At that point, God LEAVES heaven, and comes to dwell ON the earth, with His son Jesus, and with ALL of His "sons and daughters (Rev 21&22, 2 Cor 6:17-18).
At THIS point, there are no more mortals, no more wicked.
At THIS point, God allows His righteous children to "inherit ALL things", they will inherit "the paradise of God. And, the Scriptures that discuss "the righteous will NEVER be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth", are fulfilled for all eternity.
Rev 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[BABerean2]

The 1,000 year reign is Christ's government to rule over the mortal survivors of his 2nd coming. During that time period, Israel (all 12 tribes) will be fully restored to their land, and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David ... ALL the righteous .. will FINALLY inherit that land as a PERMANENT home.

Problem number one:

Most of the physical 12 tribes no longer exist in their pure genealogical form. Most of them were carried off and dispersed by the Assyrians many years before the time of Christ. Any of their descendants have now intermarried with Gentiles and no longer have a pure Israelite bloodline, compared to Paul in Romans 11:1. What you are claiming is like trying to clone a Wooly Mammoth and at least we have a frozen Wooly Mammoth to start with. You do not have any pure DNA as an original source.

Therefore, the 144,000 must be symbolic. This should not surprise us since the Book of Revelation is filled with symbols. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not made of wood and metal, when described as two trees and candlesticks. The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb, in Revelation 14:4. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same language to describe Christians.


Problem number two:

Based on 2 Peter 3:10, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up.
Therefore, nobody can inherit a "PERMANENT" home on this world.
The only permanent home is found in Hebrews 11:16.

.

 

[SeventyOne]

Problem number one:

Most of the physical 12 tribes no longer exist in their pure genealogical form. Most of them were carried off and dispersed by the Assyrians many years before the time of Christ. Any of their descendants have now intermarried with Gentiles and no longer have a pure Israelite bloodline, compared to Paul in Romans 11:1. What you are claiming is like trying to clone a Wooly Mammoth and at least we have a frozen Wooly Mammoth to start with. You do not have any pure DNA as an original source.

Therefore, the 144,000 must be symbolic. This should not surprise us since the Book of Revelation is filled with symbols. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not made of wood and metal, when described as two trees and candlesticks. The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb, in Revelation 14:4. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same language to describe Christians.


Problem number two:

Based on 2 Peter 3:10, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up.
Therefore, nobody can inherit a "PERMANENT" home on this world.
The only permanent home is found in Hebrews 11:16.

.

So you don't think God is able to preserve any Jews to fulfill His word? This claim that there aren't enough Jews who are 'pure enough' is only speculation (or desire).

So when God goes through the trouble of telling us there will be 144,000 of them, then gives us the details of the exact count from specific tribes, I don't think it could be anymore clear He's gone out of His way to tell us these are actual Jews.

 

[Dartman]

Problem number one:

Most of the physical 12 tribes no longer exist in their pure genealogical form. Most of them were carried off and dispersed by the Assyrians many years before the time of Christ. Any of their descendants have now intermarried with Gentiles and no longer have a pure Israelite bloodline, compared to Paul in Romans 11:1. What you are claiming is like trying to clone a Wooly Mammoth and at least we have a frozen Wooly Mammoth to start with. You do not have any pure DNA as an original source.

Your description is accurate! For the whole house of Israel to be recovered from the nations would take a MIRACLE!
As SeventyOne correctly pointed out, we are talking about Jehovah/YHVH God's power here, which was given to His son, Jesus of Nazareth. The judgment call regarding who has sufficient bloodline, will be made with divine accuracy. But the Scriptures clearly describe they WILL be recovered!
Ezek 37:11-14 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off. 12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, saith Jehovah.
I believe this is a prophetic statement that Jehovah WILL recover all 12 tribes. It is true that SOME will literally be resurrected at Christ's coming, for Jesus stated Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in Israel in his 1,000 year reign. But I believe the description of the "dry bones" isn't talking about a literal resurrection out of the graves, it is describing the miracle required to recover the living, mortal descendants of all 12 tribes. And, so is the next prophecy in Eze 37, the prophecy of "the two sticks";
Ezek 37:21-24 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And my servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in mine ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Whether verse 24 is meaning the resurrected David will be their king, (With Jesus of Nazareth as his king, since Jesus will make all the righteous to be kings and priests, and Jesus will be king over all the earth), or Jesus as David's descendant, being given the throne of his father David, you still have a promise that has NEVER ..... EVER .... in history been fulfilled .... yet.

Therefore, the 144,000 must be symbolic. This should not surprise us since the Book of Revelation is filled with symbols. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not made of wood and metal, when described as two trees and candlesticks. The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb, in Revelation 14:4. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same language to describe Christians.

Your premise is flawed since Jehovah/YHVH God has promised the whole house of Israel will be restored. You are correct, there is LOTS of symbolism in Revelation. We must rely on other Scriptures, and context, to sort the literal from the symbolic.

Problem number two:

Based on 2 Peter 3:10, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up.
Therefore, nobody can inherit a "PERMANENT" home on this world.

You are VERY close, but incorrect. Yes, this heaven and earth will be "destroyed" by fire, exactly like the 1st heaven and earth were "destroyed" by water, according to 2 Peter 3. AND, according to Rev 20-23, where we are promised Jehovah/YHVH God is going to "make all things new".
Notice .... He is not going to "make all new things". This statement matches the VAST quantities of prophecies, and promises, that Jehovah/YHVH God is going to "refresh", "restore", "renew" this planet, so it is returned to the post-creation "Paradise of God".

The only permanent home is found in Hebrews 11:16.

That "home" is coming here, and so is it's creator;
Rev 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them, (and be) their God:

 

[Winken]

The 1,000 year reign is Christ's government to rule over the mortal survivors of his 2nd coming. During that time period, Israel (all 12 tribes) will be fully restored to their land, and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David ... ALL the righteous .. will FINALLY inherit that land as a PERMANENT home. At the end of Christ's government, Satan will be loosed, and Satan will deceive the mortal descendants of those survivors into revolting against Jesus and his saints. That rebellion will be destroyed by fire, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Then ALL the wicked, who were NOT resurrected in the 1st resurrection, AND all the mortals that have died during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will be resurrected to judgment. Any righteous will be granted eternal life, and all the wicked, and Satan, and all the works, and all the heavens, "will melt with fervent heat"..... the 2nd heaven and earth will be destroyed by fire. (Rev 20, 2 Peter 3)
God then "makes all things new"... He RENEWS the heavens and the earth. God sends the "holy city New Jerusalem" FROM His presence in heaven, TO the earth. At that point, God LEAVES heaven, and comes to dwell ON the earth, with His son Jesus, and with ALL of His "sons and daughters (Rev 21&22, 2 Cor 6:17-18).
At THIS point, there are no more mortals, no more wicked.
At THIS point, God allows His righteous children to "inherit ALL things", they will inherit "the paradise of God. And, the Scriptures that discuss "the righteous will NEVER be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth", are fulfilled for all eternity.
Rev 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Excellent summations!!