Where was the house of Israel in the 1st century?

[Copperhead]

.78 years = 9.25 months.
May 14 = 5.5 months, so that leaves 3.25 months which then run into 537BC.

So around September 22 537BC is the correct start date.

I think you are most likely correct. I got in a hurry in posting this stuff, including mostly just from memory, and didn't remember every detail down to months and decimal places. Just getting old!

I was doing some more digging on the decree date and I found many references of around August of 537 (but equally as likely September you mention) which would be -536.4 for math purposes. Add the 2483.8 years of the exile, factor for no "zero" year, and it came to 1948.4 which would be roughly May of 1948. There is no real way to ascertain the exact month and day precisely that far back. But the calculation is so close, that it seems contentious and straining at a gnat to quibble over a month, give or take.

God knows the exact details and it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that May 14, 1948 was the exact day the calculations work out to, precisely to the day that God had intended in putting all this together.

It is still a jaw dropper to see these things happen right before our eyes.

 

[A71]

Do you see two separate judgements at work? One on the house of Judah (490 years) one on the house of Israel (2520 years) ?

 

[A71]

The reason I ask is simple: The date of 538BC is the correct one for Judah.

If we go back to Jeremiah he says:

and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So I am seeing the punishment as a punishment on the two houses, of Judah and of Israel.

When the punishment ends, Judah goes under 490 years of further punishment. (Daniel's 70 weeks).

But Jeremiah and Daniel differ on the 70 weeks. Jeremiah says it is 70 years of Babylonian captivity.

Jeremiah 25:12
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Daniel says it is 70 years of desolations of Jerusalem.

70 prophetic years is 71 lunar years and 69 solar years. It is an interesting number as it maps out pretty exactly one year either way.

The Babylonians had a lunisolar calendar.
Jerusalem is under the lunar calendar.

When the Jews left Babylon it took a year for them to reach Judea.

So somewhere in there is a solution to how King Cyrus's decree went out 538BC, but the Israelite punishment started 537BC

 

[A71]

There is also another 70 year pattern of events.

586BC destruction of Jerusalem
516BC Jerusalem reconstruction completed under Ezra

516BC is 19 years post 537BC

1948 to 1967 = 19 years

 

[Hank77]

Only a fraction of the captives returned. Most stayed in Babylon in rejection of God. So Leviticus 26 gets applied. If the nation remained in rebellion, the punishment of 7 times would be applied.

Where does it say in scripture that the ones who stayed in Babylon were in rebellion? I don't remember that.

 

[Copperhead]

Do you see two separate judgements at work? One on the house of Judah (490 years) one on the house of Israel (2520 years) ?

Nope. Simply because in 2 Chronicles 11, and several other passages, the Levites and members of all the northern tribes, that remained faithful to God migrated south and joined with Judah under Rehoboam and Josiah and built up the southern kingdom. Both before and after the fall of the northern kingdom. From that point on, all the tribes were intermingled and were so when the southern kingdom went into the Babylonian captivity. Ezra uses the term "Jew" 8 times and "Israel" 40 times, along with Nehemiah that uses the term "Jew" 11 times and "Israel" 22 times. All the tribes were considered one. James, Paul, Peter, and Jesus all reflect that as well.

 

[Copperhead]

Where does it say in scripture that the ones who stayed in Babylon were in rebellion? I don't remember that.

No in precise words, but only a minority fraction of the total Hebrew population returned. But the majority remained in Babylon, contrary to being faithful to God and returning. By implication, if one is not faithful, one is rebelling, don't you think?

 

[Copperhead]

There is also another 70 year pattern of events.

586BC destruction of Jerusalem
516BC Jerusalem reconstruction completed under Ezra

516BC is 19 years post 537BC

1948 to 1967 = 19 years

You do mean temple reconstruction, right? The decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem came the next century under Artexerxes Longimanus per Nehemiah, roughly 458 BC. Cyrus gave the decree to Ezra to rebuild the temple, not the city. Darius confirmed the Cyrus decree ball park the 19 years you mention. But I follow your assertion.

 

[A71]

Nope. Simply because in 2 Chronicles 11, and several other passages, the Levites and members of all the northern tribes, that remained faithful to God migrated south and joined with Judah under Rehoboam and Josiah and built up the southern kingdom. Both before and after the fall of the northern kingdom. From that point on, all the tribes were intermingled and were so when the southern kingdom went into the Babylonian captivity. Ezra uses the term "Jew" 8 times and "Israel" 40 times, along with Nehemiah that uses the term "Jew" 11 times and "Israel" 22 times. All the tribes were considered one. James, Paul, Peter, and Jesus all reflect that as well.

Where do they reflect it?

 

[A71]

You do mean temple reconstruction, right? The decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem came the next century under Artexerxes Longimanus per Nehemiah, roughly 458 BC. Cyrus gave the decree to Ezra to rebuild the temple, not the city. Darius confirmed the Cyrus decree ball park the 19 years you mention. But I follow your assertion.

Nope. The decree to rebuild the Temple and city was issued by Cyrus. AL put in an order for some logs, but it is not remotely anything like a decree.

 

[A71]

You do mean temple reconstruction, right? The decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem came the next century under Artexerxes Longimanus per Nehemiah, roughly 458 BC. Cyrus gave the decree to Ezra to rebuild the temple, not the city. Darius confirmed the Cyrus decree ball park the 19 years you mention. But I follow your assertion.

The Second Temple was rebuilt in the 6th year of Darius reign, therefore 516BC. Yes, I think I mean reconstruction. Or is that the wrong term?

 

[Hank77]

No in precise words, but only a minority fraction of the total Hebrew population returned. But the majority remained in Babylon, contrary to being faithful to God and returning. By implication, if one is not faithful, one is rebelling, don't you think?

I would consider one in rebellion if God had told them all to go to Jerusalem but like I said I don't remember that being the case.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think you are most likely correct. I got in a hurry in posting this stuff, including mostly just from memory, and didn't remember every detail down to months and decimal places. Just getting old!

I was doing some more digging on the decree date and I found many references of around August of 537 (but equally as likely September you mention) which would be -536.4 for math purposes. Add the 2483.8 years of the exile, factor for no "zero" year, and it came to 1948.4 which would be roughly May of 1948. There is no real way to ascertain the exact month and day precisely that far back. But the calculation is so close, that it seems contentious and straining at a gnat to quibble over a month, give or take.

God knows the exact details and it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that May 14, 1948 was the exact day the calculations work out to, precisely to the day that God had intended in putting all this together.

It is still a jaw dropper to see these things happen right before our eyes.

Does this mathematical calculation factor in that there is no year zero? We go from 1 BC to 1 AD.

 

[bloodygrace]

Romans 11:25-33

Romans 11 is referring to Jews who were in unbelief and later come to repentance and accept Christ. Accepting Christ not keeping the law was the standard in the 1st century and it's the standard in the 21st century as well.

 

[bloodygrace]

Make sure you look at all the words of those verses. Both physical and spiritual is in view.

"to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham"

And while we are in Romans, don't forget to study chapters 9, 10, and 11 which includes this little morsel:


Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You have to keep in mind, the covenant that God made with Abraham and his descendants regarding physical land and such, was an unconditional covenant. Study what went on when God performed the ceremony of sealing the covenant in Genesis 15:7-21.

In a covenant sealing ceremony in ancient times, when two parties sealed a covenant, animals are cut in two and the two parties pass thru them reciting the words of the covenant, that if either break the covenant, they will be as those cut animals. God caused a deep sleep to fall over Abraham, and God Himself passed thru the cut animals, signifying that the covenant was dependent only on God to maintain. Abraham and his physical descendants couldn't break the covenant if they wanted to. God enforces the covenant and will not break it, or His word is on the line. If the covenant is broken, then God is a liar. And God holds nothing higher than His word.

And if God's word isn't good enough to uphold the covenant, then His word is not good enough to uphold your salvation. God is one who delights in making and keeping His promises. His character and word is on the line. Every true believer relies on God's promises. If they cannot be relied upon, then this whole Christianity thing is worthless.

Sure, Israel was dispersed from the land due to rebellion, but the promise is still valid. And the period of time that God specified that they would be punished has come to an end. Israel, as per the prophecies, is in the land. Sure, initially in unbelief. Like dry bones as stated in Ezekiel 37. But God will breath life back into them. But it will take the tribulation period to finally wake them up and then the prophesy in Hosea will be realized fully:

Hosea 5:15-6:2 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Chapter 6
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

For God to return to His place, He had to have left it. And He did, as Messiah who was crucified, buried, and resurrected. And Messiah had this passage in Hosea clearly in mind when He stated:

Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Verse 29 is referring to election and unless you are Reformed you don't even know what that means. Elect Jews who accept Christ will be saved at the end of time just like elect Jews of the 1st century (Stephen, Paul, Peter, Philip, John etc.) were saved. All the thousands who rejected Christ and were zealous of the law were lost.

 

[Copperhead]

Does this mathematical calculation factor in that there is no year zero? We go from 1 BC to 1 AD.

If you look at my posts on this, I stated explicitly that one has to factor in that there is no year Zero.

 

[Copperhead]

Where do they reflect it?

Did you not read the post? I said, again, that Ezra called the returnees "Jews" 8 times and "Israel" 40 times. And that Nehemiah on his venture called the returnees with him "Jew" 11 times and "Israel" 22 times. Kinda gives one the idea that he viewed all the tribes as a collective unit, eh?

James, right up front, addresses his letter the the 12 tribes. Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably many times. Jesus Himself refers to the lost sheep of the house of Israel when he sent out the disciples on their first foray into evangelism. He sure didn't send them to Babylon, the Black Sea, India, Africa, Europe, or the Americas (per Mormonism). The disciples only did a short evangelism in the region and returned to Jesus. This was all before the crucifixion. He viewed all the tribes as a collective unit right in the land where He was. The book of Hebrews should be pretty obvious. Peter, on the day of Pentacost addresses the entire Hebrew crowd as "men of Israel". The day of Pentacost was one of those high holy days that all Hebrews were required to be in Jerusalem for the festival. So there would have been Judeans, Levites, and some of all the tribes there, yet Peter calls all of them Israel.

 

[A71]

yes, I do. You said :
"James, Paul, Peter, and Jesus all reflect that as well."

Nothing to do with Ezra or Nehemiah


James, right up front, addresses his letter the the 12 tribes.
..yes, in the dispersion

Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably many times.
.....but he also differentiates very clearly between Jew and Israelite at others

Jesus Himself refers to the lost sheep of the house of Israel when he sent out the disciples on their first foray into evangelism.
......lost

He sure didn't send them to Babylon, the Black Sea, India, Africa, Europe, or the Americas (per Mormonism).
...How do you know?

The disciples only did a short evangelism in the region and returned to Jesus.
.....where do you glean this?

Did you not read the post? I said, again, that Ezra called the returnees "Jews" 8 times and "Israel" 40 times. And that Nehemiah on his venture called the returnees with him "Jew" 11 times and "Israel" 22 times. Kinda gives one the idea that he viewed all the tribes as a collective unit, eh?

James, right up front, addresses his letter the the 12 tribes. Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably many times. Jesus Himself refers to the lost sheep of the house of Israel when he sent out the disciples on their first foray into evangelism. He sure didn't send them to Babylon, the Black Sea, India, Africa, Europe, or the Americas (per Mormonism). The disciples only did a short evangelism in the region and returned to Jesus. This was all before the crucifixion. He viewed all the tribes as a collective unit right in the land where He was. The book of Hebrews should be pretty obvious. Peter, on the day of Pentacost addresses the entire Hebrew crowd as "men of Israel". The day of Pentacost was one of those high holy days that all Hebrews were required to be in Jerusalem for the festival. So there would have been Judeans, Levites, and some of all the tribes there, yet Peter calls all of them Israel.

 

[Copperhead]

yes, I do. You said :
"James, Paul, Peter, and Jesus all reflect that as well."

Nothing to do with Ezra or Nehemiah


James, right up front, addresses his letter the the 12 tribes.
..yes, in the dispersion

Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably many times.
.....but he also differentiates very clearly between Jew and Israelite at others

Jesus Himself refers to the lost sheep of the house of Israel when he sent out the disciples on their first foray into evangelism.
......lost

He sure didn't send them to Babylon, the Black Sea, India, Africa, Europe, or the Americas (per Mormonism).
...How do you know?

The disciples only did a short evangelism in the region and returned to Jesus.
.....where do you glean this?

Ezra and Nehemiah were referenced for clarity on the issue of a collective view of all the tribes.

Yes, James wrote to the twelve tribes in the dispersion, but he references all the tribes. No delineation between southern tribes, northern tribes, and clearly not some idea that they had been assimilated as many sometimes assert. James viewed all the tribes collectively as one, present, and known. That was the point. And also, James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. According to Josephus and others, James was highly regarded in the Jewish community and even recognized by the non believing Jews as a man of great character.

How do I know about where the disciples went? You try walking by foot to the black sea from Judea and back with only a short time between when you are sent out until the time of Jesus' crucifixion. Take a look at how long Paul's evangelistic routes took. You think the Book Of Acts was a history of only a couple of months? Try several decades. And factor in the timeline from this evangelistic mission and the time the disciples spent with Jesus before His crucifixion. The only reasonable conclusion was that the disciples were sent throughout the territory of Israel to the lost sheep, spiritually. This episode was not after the ascension when Jesus told them to go into all the world. To ask how I know comes across as just wanting to be argumentative, if not down right asinine. It is pride and arrogance that states "I know you don't know". You would be wise to follow the prescription in Proverbs 18:13.

 

[bloodygrace]

You might try re-reading the Book of Acts. With special attention to Pentacost event (which is one of the feasts all Jews were required to come to Jerusalem during) Sure sounds like most of the known world at that time to me.

Acts 2:5-11 (NKJV) And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

My previous assertion still stands. Look, this is basic stuff. You act as if either you haven't read it (why not?) or your are just trying to pick a fight.

Hellenistic Jews that dominated the 1st century landscape rejected the Torah, Sabbath, food restrictions and most things Jewish. They were closer to Gentile than Jew.

And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Acts 6:1