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Where is the unity under the trinity god?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by lared, Jan 7, 2003.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Romans 5 is helpful here:
    "THerefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned; ...death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam... For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came thorugh the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressionsresulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness wil reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as thorugh one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Jesus on the Cross) there resulted justification of life to al men. For as throgh the one man's disobedience (Adam-eating-the-apple) the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the mane will be made righteous."

    Clear? Through Adam, condemnation CAME to all men---and all are condemned (fallen). THrough Jesus, justification CAME to all men---but in THIS case, there is the CONDITION, of BELIEF.

    As verse 17 says, not EVERYONE is justified, but only those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and RECEIVE the gift of righteousness.

    Salvation is RECEIVING grace & righteousness, through RECEIVING CHRIST---"For as many as as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." Jn1:12

    John 6:44 says, "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAWS him"; the word here for "draw", is "HELKUO"---it means drag forcibly. Then in John12:32, Jesus declares, "I will HELKUO-DRAW-DRAG all men to Myself."

    Thus is supported the premise that God DRAWS ALL men to Himself, giving EACH and EVERY PERSON the chance to repent and receive Christ---"Justification CAME to all men"; given that choice, each CAN repent and receive Jesus, OR can turn and walk away.

    According to John3:19-20, and John8:43-44, some men DO love darkness and hate God, and WILL walk away unrepentant.

    But JUSTICE is served---no one goes to Hell except by his own choice---he truly has "NO EXCUSE" (Rm1:20). Each person CAN believe, Jesus IS the "propitiation (appeasement) for sins for the HOLOS KOSMOS entire world (1Jn2:2); all conditioned on our RECEIVING it---receiving CHRIST.

    :)
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
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    He has and I identified them!
    The question is fallacious if you are not willing to answer it yourself. More than one person has indicated that to you. You want to see people defending the doctrine of the Trinity? You were told there are several threads on this forum where I and others have and are doing that very thing. Here are a few of the many threads which discuss the Trinity.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31754-1.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/26315.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/25309.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31018.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31921.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31051.html

    The responses are not about other topics but relate directly to your question. Since you imply that the test for the true God is a united and loving people then you should tell us who that people is.
    Difference of opinion on nonessentials is NOT division. Some peple prefer to worship in a suit and tie, others prefer sneakers and jeans. That does not mean they are not brothers.
    Some Baptists broke away from some other Baptists, over the issue of slavery NOT Theology. Do you know how many did not? And I believe that the civil war occurred before Charlie Russell started his cult. So where was this one true united loving people in 1860?
    And you can produce some scriptural prohibition against God's people defending themselves and other weaker peoples from aggression? I believe YHWH the God of the O.T. repeatedly sent His people into war. I remember reading somehere about a little shepherd boy killing a giant in the name of the Lord of Hosts, and God called him a man after His own heart.
    And your point is? A difference of opinion over nonessentials is NOT killing one another. Again I remind you that there are several different Unitarian groups who differ over various issues and all fo them, just like the followers of Charlie Russell, claiming to be the ONLY TRUE church.
    Some Lutherans and some Presbyterians! And I can show books written by people who have spent their lives in the Russell cult and have left it. What kind of genuine unity and love was that where people who grew up in "THE ONLY TRUE" church reject its teachings.
    Oh you mean like the group that calls Christian pastors Dumb Dogs? Oh that is genuine love alright. Didn't Jesus say "Do not even the publicans do the same." Any group that only shows love for their own members is no different than a pagan.
    Skirt means to avoid. Is that your purpose to avoid issues and questions? Perhaps the identity of your sect is unecessary, but the identity of your so-called only genuine loving denomination is very germane to this question, since you are implying that anyone who does not believe exactly as you do is wrong. Where do we go to join up with the ONLY TRUE LOVING and UNITED CHURCH?
     
  3. RevKidd

    RevKidd Simple Mans Theologian

    +63
    Pentecostal
    Married
    US-Republican
    Some of the Jehovahs Witnessess Beliefs....  (Former or Current)

    There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.
    There is no Trinity, Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things, p.386. The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
    406-407.
    The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
    p. 24.
    Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
    creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391.
    Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
    1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.
    Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
    1985, pp. 306.
    Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4. Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276. Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
    pp. 89-90.
    Jesus returned to earth, invisibly, in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 300. Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God be True, p. 119. Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
    1972, p. 197.
    They claim to be the only channel of God's truth, The Watchtower, Feb. 15,
    1981, p. 19.
    Only their church members will be saved, The Watchtower, Feb, 15, 1979, p. 30. Good works are necessary for salvation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1,
    pp. 150, 152.
    The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67. There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, p. 79, 80. Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
    1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.
    Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. Reasoning from the
    Scriptures, 1985, p. 76.; Watchtower 11/15/54, p. 681.
    Only the 144,000 may take communion, Blood transfusions are a sin, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 72-73. The Cross is a pagan symbol and should not be used, Reasoning from the
    Scriptures, 1985, pp. 90-92.
    Salvation is by faith and what you do, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp.
    150,152.
    It is possible to lose your salvation, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
    358-359.
    The universe is billions of years old, Your will Be Done on Earth, p. 43. Each of the 6 creative days of God in Genesis 1, was 7000 years long.
    Therefore, Man was created toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's
    preparation, Let God be True, p. 168.
    They also refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner," or
    celebrate Christmas or birthdays. They are not allowed to serve in the armed
    forces.


    Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of
    overseeing the creation of the earth, Children, p 55
     
  4. RevKidd

    RevKidd Simple Mans Theologian

    +63
    Pentecostal
    Married
    US-Republican
    According to Jehovah's Witness' theology, God is a single person, not a Trinity, who does not know all things and is not everywhere. He first created Michael the Archangel through whom He created all "other things," including the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve, etc. This creative work took God 42,000 years. At one point, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society taught that God ruled the universe from somewhere in the Pleiades star system. They have since modified this to say that the "Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God's throne as being at a particular spot in the universe."<SUP>1</SUP> Such changes and even&nbsp;contradictions in teachings&nbsp;are frequent in the Watchtower organization and when a doctrine changes, they tell their followers that the light of truth is getting brighter.


    After Adam sinned, the paradise which God had created for them, was ruined. So, God instituted a system of redemption which was revealed in the Bible and would ultimately lead to the crucifixion of Jesus the messiah. But, in the meantime, God needed to have a visible, theocratic organization on earth to accurately represent Him. Throughout history, this true organization had a remnant of faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc.) but it wasn't until the late 1800's that Charles Taze Russell formerly began what is now known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society which is run out of Brooklyn, New York. This organization claims to be the only true channel of God's truth on earth today and that it alone can properly interpret God's word since it is the angel directed, prophet of God on earth.


    When it came time for the savior to be born, Michael the Archangel became a human, in the form of Jesus. Jesus grew and kept all the laws of God and never sinned. Finally, when Jesus died, it was not on a cross, but on a torture stake, where he bore the sins of mankind -- but this did not include Adam's sins. Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit, not physically (his body was dissolved and taken by God) and during his visitations to people on earth, he manifested a temporary physical body for them to see and touch. Thus began the true Christian church of Jehovah's followers.
    Throughout history there have been faithful Jehovah's witnesses who have managed to keep The Truth in spite of the "demonic" doctrine of Trinitarianism that has permeated the Christian church in "Christendom." Christendom is filled with pastors who are antichrists, in churches run by Satan, and who support the earthly governments which are all of the devil. In other words, all of Christianity is false and only the Jehovah's Witness "theocratic" organization lead by several men in Brooklyn, New York, is true.


    In the late 1800's, a young man of 18 years, by the name of Charles Taze Russell, organized a Bible class in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 1879 he sought to popularize his ideas on doctrine so he co-published The Herald of the Morning magazine with its founder, N. H. Barbour and by 1884 Russell controlled the publication and renamed it The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom, and founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (now known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society). Russell served as the teacher and guide for the organization which taught that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is now reigning in heaven. When Jesus finally returns physical to earth, which will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon, He will set up his earthly 1000 year kingdom. During this 1000 year period, people will be resurrected and have a second chance to receive eternal salvation by following the principles of Jehovah's Organization on earth known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. After the millennium, those who reject God and His organization will be annihilated; that is, they will cease to exist. The rest of the Jehovah's Witness who have faithfully followed God's organization on earth will be saved from eternal annihilation and reside forever on Paradise earth. Heaven, however, is a place for a special group of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses -- the only ones who are "born again" and who alone are allowed to take communion in their annual communion service. These are the ones who have "immortal life," all other Witnesses have "everlasting life." Those with immortal life do not have resurrected bodies. They have "spirit bodies." Those on Paradise Earth have everlasting life and consists of a resurrected body that must be maintained through eating, rest, etc.


    When you study with the Jehovah's Witness, you agree to attend five meetings a week where you are taught from Watchtower literature. You cannot be baptized until you have studied their material for at least six months and have answered numerous questions before a panel of elders. Men are not supposed have long hair or wear beards and women are to dress in modest apparel. They refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner, celebrate birthdays or Christmas, won't take blood transfusions, and they can't join the armed forces. A schedule of door-to-door canvassing is required where you distribute the Watchtower literature, acquire donations, and forward all monies to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.


    If you ever leave the Jehovah's Witness organization, you are considered an apostate and are to be shunned.
     
  5. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

    184
    +0
    As per custom, you have quoted a scripture that says nothing like what you think it says. The scripture says sin entered the world through one man but it says nothing about the nature of man changing when sin entered. Man remains as God created him---capable of sin and now he has sinned.
     
  6. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Where is the unity under the trinity god?
     
  7. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

    184
    +0
    You must first define unity. What does it look like? What did Jesus mean by unity? A great deal of mischief and merrymaking has been had under the banners of "unity." A definition is in order. It's your question, you have the duty to define the terms of your question.
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Are you KIDDING?!?!

    ;)
    Whose custom? Mine?

    Was Adam created with a sin nature? Certainly not. Adam sinned through conscious choice---and through that sin, all men are condemned.

    I searched "sinful nature" on my computerized pocket Bible---unfortunately it is NIV. However, it correctly uses "sinful nature" for "flesh"; according to Strong's Greek Interlinear, "Sarx" (flesh), carries the definition: the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

    Romans 7 speaks of "nothing good dwells in my "SARX"; chapter 6 speaks of our body of sin dying with Christ, and we are "born anew". Chapter 8 speaks of "walking in the flesh" (according to the sinful nature), as opposed to "walking in the Spirit" (according to the new, "born-again-nature").

    Adam was not created with a sinful nature, a "sarx/fleshly/prone-to-sin-and-opposed-to-God" body. When one fell, all fell; by the one transgression, did all transgress. Adam rebelled and sinned---so was born to all of his descendents the inclination towards sinfulness.

    Our nature is not born godly---"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; there are NONE righteous, NONE who seek God, NONE who do good" (Rm3); and yet, this is exageration (Paul quoting two psalms which were ALSO a "lament" rather than "absolute"). Scripture is replete with recounting of the universalness of the OFFER of salvation. From the start we are given a choice; to choose life (God), or death (evil) (Deut30:15ff). Jesus Himself said "I will DRAW ALL MEN to Myself" (Jn12:32); "draw" here has the meaning of "drag forcibly".

    We, being by nature evil (Matt7:11a), nevertheless are provided with sufficient understanding to overcome our depravity, and CHOOSE CHRIST. "BORN AGAIN", is defined, as "receiving a new nature, through Christ". When we walk in the Spirit, we walk according to our new nature---we live. If we walk according to the FLESH, then we die. Romans8.

    :)
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    And let's not forget the famous words of King David in Psalm 51:5:

    "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    And in sin my mother conceived me."
     
  10. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

    184
    +0
    Indeed! "Apart from divine influence," if I am not mistaken means that the problem is our distance from God. You want to know about our nature? Here it is---we were not intended to function independent of God. That nature didn't change when we sinned it was confirmed. Our nature hasn't changed. The only thing that changed was that we moved away from God.

    The Fall is a medieval invention.
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
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    [dd]Where is the unity under the Unitarian God? Many sects reject the Trinity, JW, LDS, UPCI, CD, INC, etc. Are you in unity with all of them? And many former faithful "witnesses" now reject the teachings of Charlie Russell and his sect. Isn't the Unitarian god capable of keeping his "witnesses?
     
  12. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

    184
    +0
    &nbsp;

    Ever here of the poetic device called "hyperbole?"&nbsp; No Jewish Rabbi, including the Rabbi we worship,&nbsp;has ever seen original sin in the passage you quote.&nbsp; If it were there, we would have to conclude that God condemns newborn babies to hell.

    Our nature remains unchanged since Adam sinned---we still cannot survive apart from God.&nbsp; Our sin confirms that nature and the need to draw near to God.
     
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Here is an interesting website for JWs and those interested in their teachings. It is by and for ex-JWs. It features books and articles all written by former JW leaders who have spent decades in the group. Don't like that one? Go you your browser and type "Former Jehovah Witness" and you will get 40,000+ hits. Many, many, many sites where ex-JW's are providing a place to help those still in bondage to the watchtower. Where is the unity under the JW God?

    http://www.xjw.com/
     
  14. RevKidd

    RevKidd Simple Mans Theologian

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    Amen Shepard...
     
  15. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

    184
    +0
    I think our original poster has withdrawn for fear that continued discussion will draw attention to the website you posted.&nbsp;
     
  16. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +37
    Jehovahs Witness
    I think the phrase that say's it all here is "Ex Jehovah's Witnesses".&nbsp; Many of which have been disfellowshiped for Gross Sin against God.&nbsp; Individuals and groups with grudges and private agendas or even worse.

    I dont think Apostate sights are the best place to find the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses, it's like asking Osama Bib Laden's opinion on the U.S.A.

    I,m surprised at you Old Shepherd for resorting to such a thing.&nbsp; It's a sign that someone is loosing his argument when he resorts to ridicule or worse.

    Best to follow scriptural advice on this one.&nbsp; Talking of Apostates the Bible councils.

    "But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·nae'us and Phi·le'tus are of that number.&nbsp; These very [men] have deviated from the truth.......and they are subverting the faith of some.&nbsp; For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: "Jehovah knows those who belong to him," and: "Let everyone naming the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness." 2 Timothy 2:16-19

    "holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith.&nbsp; Hy·me·nae'us and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan". 1 Timothy 1:19-20

    "By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued". Proverbs 11:9

    "In like manner, notwithstanding, these men, too, indulging in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones". Jude 8

    "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.&nbsp; They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort". 1 John 2:18-19

    "and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves". Acts 20:30
     
  17. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
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    Gross sin as interpreted by whom? Most of the people I read about there had not been shunned, etc. but left the organization of their own free will , which according to Lared is a sign that the God of that organization is NOT the true God because there is disagreement and disharmony in it.
    A ludicrous comparison, all the writers at those sites, NOT sights, are former JW's, born into the church and following its teachings for decades, who saw for themselves the errors of the WBTS and left. OTOH OBL was never an American so anything he says is not from first hand experience.
    The first hand experience of third generation JWs, who were high level superintendents, overseers, etc., backed up with documentary evidence, is not resorting to anything, it is the accepted way of gathering factual information.
    Jesus said forgive your brother until seventy times seven does the Russellite church practice that?
     
  18. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Deleted, inadvertent double post.
     
  19. Spiderrr

    Spiderrr New Member

    79
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    Christian
    Old Shepherd...Could you help me? In Deuteronomy 6:4 the scripture says,

    Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one [Echad] Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your might.

    Does "echad" carry the meaning of compound unity in this word as it does with a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two shall be one flesh?

    What is the Hebrew meaning for "one"? Thank you O.S. for your help.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Yes I believe that to be true. See this brief quote from the below link. At that link is a very well researched 200 plus page discussion of the Trinity.

    • This is the famous Shema: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." There are two words for 'one' in Biblical Hebrew: 'ehad (composite unity--one made up of parts) and yahidh (uniqueness-only one of its kind). This verse is sometimes used by groups within the Jewish tradition to assert the numerical unity of God, over against what they perceive as a 'Christian' notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse actually does the opposite. Instead of using YAHIDH, which MIGHT be of some support to their position, it uses 'EHAD, which lends itself to the plurality position. Consider some other passages in which 'EHAD is used:

      Gen 2.24--the man and his wife will be one (ehad) flesh--clearly a composite unity.

      Ex 26:6, 11--the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit (ehad).

      2 Samuel 2:25--many soldiers made themselves into 'one group' (ehad)

      Gen 34:16 --the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become 'one(ehad) people'.

      Joshua 9.2 -- the western kings agree to fight Joshua as "one (ehad) force"

      Josh 10.42-- "And Joshua captured all these kings and their lands at one (ehad) time" (NAS) or "All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one (ehad) campaign" (NIV)

      Ex 24.3 --"Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one (ehad) voice, and said"

      2 Chr 5.12--"and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets 13 in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one (ehad) voice to praise and to glorify the Lord"

      Gen 11.6--"And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one (ehad) people, and they all have the same language."
      The point here is that IF a strict UniTx was intended, THEN this passage would not use such a misleading word for 'one'. (cf. TWOT: s.v. "It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness.")

      http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin02.html
     
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