Where is the unity under the trinity god?

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by lared Old Shepherd,

The one true God, Jehovah, has produced a people that are united. They are his witnesses. They are united doctrinally, are no part of this world, and do not wound or kill each other in times of war. There are some 6 and a half million of them living in some 235 lands and they are united in declaring the good news of the kingdom.

(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Jehovah is Almighty and all wise and is capable of doing this.

Now as far as the trinity god.......is he capable of doing this? If so, who are his people?

And when will his people begin to unitedly preach the good news of the kingdom?

[dd]The name of the creator according to the Jewish Encyclopedia.

• 
  YHWH.
  Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh (יהו&#1492), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility (see Jehovah).
  This form has arisen through attempting to pronounce the consonants of the name with the vowels of Adonai (אדנ&#1497) = "Lord"), which the Masorites have inserted in the text, indicating thereby that Adonai was to be read (as a "tseri perpetuum") instead of Yhwh.
  
  Jehovah
  A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible; it arose through pronouncing the vowels of the "tsere" (marginal reading of the Masorites: (אדנ&#1497) = "Adonay") with the consonants of the "ketib" (text-reading: (יהו&#1492) = "Yhwh")—"Adonay" (the Lord) being substituted with one exception wherever Yhwh occurs in the Biblical and liturgical books. "Adonay" presents the vowels "shewa" (the composite under the guttural aleph &#1488 becomes simple under the &#1497), "kholem," and "qametz," and these give the reading ("Jehovah"). Sometimes, when the two names YHWH and Adonai occur together, the former is pointed with "qatef segol" under the yod —thus, ("Jehovah")—to indicate that in this combination it is to be pronounced "Elohim". These substitutions of "Adonay"and "Elohim" for Yhwh were devised to avoid the profanation of the Ineffable Name (hence יהו&#1492 is also written הי , or even די), and read "ha-Shem" = "the Name ").
  
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N

[dd]The Hebrew word “hovah” means ruin and disaster. I wonder if the creator merely ignores it when people, who claim to be His “witnesses” deliberately mispronounce His name to mean ruin, disaster, and destruction when they have been repeatedly informed of this?

• 
  Strong’s 01943 הו&#1492 hovah ho-vaw’

• 
  
  another form for 01942; TWOT - 483c; n f
  AV - mischief 3; 3
  1) ruin, disaster

[dd]Note, you still have not identified this people.

 

[lared]

Old Shepherd,

And what about the name Jesus?

And a whole host of other names found in English Bibles?

As mentioned earlier, Jehovah is the common modern day English pronunciation of Almighty God found some 7,000 times in the Holy Scriptures.

Similiar with the name of Jehovah's son....Jesus. Jesus is the common modern day English pronunciation. Certainly that is not what his family called him.

 

[lared]

Old Shepherd,

Your 'hovah' thought is a bit silly.
The English greeting hello....taken apart contains .....hell.....which millions of people regard as a fiery place of torment.

According to you....then....this greeting is inappropriate.

Information for you:

JEHOVAH

(Je·ho'vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah' (become); meaning "He Causes to Become"].

The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as "God," "Sovereign Lord," "Creator," "Father," "the Almighty," and "the Most High," his personality and attributes-who and what he is-are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.-Ps 83:18.


Let us not avoid the subject of this thread........Why cannot the trinity god unite a people.....if he can....who are they? Both the pope and Jerry Falwell worship this trinity god and yet their teachings conflict with each other. Who is telling the truth....the pope or jerry falwell? Why are they not united?

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by lared
Old Shepherd,

Your 'hovah' thought is a bit silly.
The English greeting hello....taken apart contains .....hell.....which millions of people regard as a fiery place of torment.

According to you....then....this greeting is inappropriate.

[dd]Then you consider it acceptable to refer to God, the creator, with Jehovah, a term supposedly taken from the Hebrew letters YHWH, a term which includes the Hebrew word for destruction, simply because a common ordinary English greeting, sounds like "hell"? And the term Jehovah has been proven to be false by Hebrew authorities.

Information for you:

JEHOVAH

(Je·ho'vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah' (become); meaning "He Causes to Become"].

[dd]What is your source? I named and linked to mine, a Hebrew site by the way. I'm pretty sure they know what they are talking about when it comes to Hebrew.

Let us not avoid the subject of this thread........Why cannot the trinity god unite a people.....if he can....who are they? Both the pope and Jerry Falwell worship this trinity god and yet their teachings conflict with each other. Who is telling the truth....the pope or jerry falwell? Why are they not united?

[dd]And oh yes, Let us not avoid the subject of this thread........Why cannot the Unitarian god unite a people.....if he can....who are they? The JW's, LDS, UPCI, Christadelphians, Iglesia ni Manolo, etc, etc, etc, worship this Unitarian god (and they all claim to be the only true Christian Church) and yet their teachings conflict with each other. Who is telling the truth....the Russellites, Smithites, etc? Why are they not united?

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by lared
Old Shepherd,

And what about the name Jesus?

And a whole host of other names found in English Bibles?

As mentioned earlier, Jehovah is the common modern day English pronunciation of Almighty God found some 7,000 times in the Holy Scriptures.

Similiar with the name of Jehovah's son....Jesus. Jesus is the common modern day English pronunciation. Certainly that is not what his family called him.

[dd]What about the name Jesus? Jesus is the transliteration of the Greek IesouV, which is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ישוע, Yeshua. And Oh BTW IesouV was how ישוע was written in the Greek LXX, by Jewish translators, 250 BC. And it has not been proven to be philologically impossible as has Jehovah. OTOH the word Jehovah was never intended to be translated nor pronounced.

[dd]"Jehovah is the common modern day English pronunciation. . ." Because a lot of people do something is a pitifully poor reason for doing anything. Remember your elementary school teacher saying, "Well, if everybody jumped off the roof would you jump off too?"

 

[layne]

Originally posted by OldShepherd  
         "[/b]Jehovah is the common modern day English pronunciation. . ." Because a lot of people do something is a pitifully poor reason for doing anything. Remember you elementary school teacher saying, "Well, if everybody jumped off the roof would you jump off too?" [/B]

You're absolutely right, most of your parents taught you that Jesus is God, and it must be so  because they said it. So, should people chose to believe a manmade doctrine that is so widely accepted? We are even told in the bible that the narrow path leads to righteousness. We can certainly see who is walking the broad path.

And to address Lared's topic, no, I really don't see how any of these mainstream "christian" denominations are uniting in any way when they all go around badmouthing one another. I have quite a few "christian" friends who take no shame in telling me that Catholics are crazy.. And that's just an example in my personal life. I don't know any JW's or Mormons who do that to others. Sure they may claim to be following the correct religion, but they don't put themselves above anyone based on their beliefs. My Muslim friends don't even carry on like that!

And let's not forget the history of how so many denominations came to be, such as Anglican church evolving from the Roman church. I don't consider that being unity. Jesus after all did pray to GOD that we humans be united just as he and his Father are.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by layne
You're absolutely right, most of your parents taught you that Jesus is God, and it must be so  because they said it.

[dd]You forgot the part where they backed it up with the Bible and then as adults children studied the Bible for themselves

So, should people chose to believe a manmade doctrine that is so widely accepted?

Which man-made doctrine would this be? I don't believe anything I cannot prove from scriptures. If you are referring to the Trinity there are many threads on this forum where several people have supported the Trinity over and over again.

And to address Lared's topic, no, I really don't see how any of these mainstream "christian" denominations are uniting in any way when they all go around badmouthing one another. . . I don't know any JW's or Mormons who do that to others. Sure they may claim to be following the correct religion, but they don't put themselves above anyone based on their beliefs. My Muslim friends don't even carry on like that!

[dd]Oh, is that so?

1. The JW term for a non-JW preacher/minister is DD, Dumb Dog, a play on the initials DD, i.e. Doctor of Divinity.
   
   http://www.jwfiles.com/lies.htm
   
   http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/JwFinishedMystery85.htm
   
2. Joe Smith the guy, who started the Mormons, claims that "The Father" told him that ALL denominations (except Mormons) are an abomination.
   
   http://www.apologeticsforchristians.homestead.com/LatterDaySaintsJosephSalvation.html
   
   http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/firstv.htm
   
3. The Hadith, the writings of the "prophet" Mohammamed, says that the time will come when the Muslims will fight Jews until a rock will cry out, "Oh slave of Allah there is Jew hiding behind me come and kill him."

1. 
   
   http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=348293&highlight=hadith#post348293

 

[lared]

Old Shepherd,

Well, I guess it has been so long that I forgot one of the main reasons why I left the churches. You ask a valid question and no valid answer is given. In this case, no answer is given. Rather, a dance around the issue and then an attack on other subjects. Sort of like......'Just have faith my son'---with an attitude.

Jesus himself in very clear terms stated that one would know his followers by the love they have amongst themselves.

(John 13:35) By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

The question for this thread was and is: Why cannot the trinity god unite his people? A similiar question would be: Who, of the trinity god's people show love for one another?

Jesus said that all will know. So it shouldn't be that difficult.

I would like to know, since so many people are proud and defensive of their trinity god.

But rather then giving a simple answer, a try to divert the attention from the subject is attempted. All the way from pronunciation of names, to question about monotheistic religions, and then to links to defamatory web sites.

It is this kind of tactic and attitude that is most disturbing to many, and no doubt a reason for many sincere people to get turned off by religion. Honest-hearted ones eventually find the truth.

If you really have issues about names and pronunciations, etc. or would like to engage in a discussion of such, why don't you begin other threads.

If you don't have an answer to the question why are you trying to muddy up the waters?
Lared

 

[MizDoulos]

Reminder:&nbsp&nbspLet's remember to be kind in responding to other members whether in comment or a question. Differences of opinion are welcomed, but not belittling or insulting others.

Thank you for your cooperation.


[noflame][/noflame]

 

[lared]

Mizdoulos,
Thank-you.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by lared
Old Shepherd,

Jesus himself in very clear terms stated that one would know his followers by the love they have amongst themselves.

(John 13:35) By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

This is only one way among others by which DISCIPLES of Christ are known. In addition to this, DISCIPLES of Christ are known for two other things:

One, they BELIEVE Jesus and STAY in his teachings (John 8:31 TEV). Two, they are CALLED by the NAME of God (Isaiah 43:7).

I know of a religious organization that prides itself of being the true religion because of its so-called "love of brotherhood." They show this by NOT enlisting in the military NOR involving themselves in war.

But are they truly DISCIPLES of Christ?

No, they don't BELIEVE Jesus NOR stay in the teaching of Christ! Jesus COMMANDED his disciples NOT to call anyone on earth Father for one is the Father in heaven (Matt. 23:9). Yet, they call Jesus "everlasting Father." Jesus TAUGHT that the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Yet they call Jesus "mighty God."

And this religious organization is NOT called by the name of God, DESPITE their allegation that they are witnesses of God.

Is it enough to fulfill one condition for becoming a DISCIPLE in order to really become a TRUE disciple?  No, all conditions must be met in order to qualify as a TRUE disciple of Christ.

Ed

 

[lared]

edpobre,
Pray tell,.....who amongst the various religious groups or peoples are united and show love amongst themselves.
Thanks,
Lared

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by lared
edpobre,
Pray tell,.....who amongst the various religious groups or peoples are united and show love amongst themselves.
Thanks,
Lared

I know of many Trinitarian groups who have love for one another, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, nondenominationals, all who fellowship, and assist each other.

Who do JWs, LDS, UPCI, INC, love and fellowship with beside their own sects?

You have refused to anwer your own question, yet you expect others to answer it.

My links were addressed to another poster, which proved that the information he posted was incorrect. He claimed that those three speicific groups did not malign and belittle other groups I proved they did.

If you are a JW, as I suspect, then why have you not come right out and admitted it? Who are these Unitarians who you claim are united in love etc. whereas I and the others who have responded to you evidently are not?

And once again I remind you you have asked questions BUT have not answered the same question yourself.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I know of many Trinitarian groups who have love for one another, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, nondenominationals, all who fellowship, and assist each other.

I feel we can question the genuiness of this love.  These same organisations or groups as you call them have slaughtered one another and have even used their pulpits as recruiting stations to get their members to join in the bloodbaths.  And no doubt would do so again at the request of polticians.

I find it very sad that for example that, Baptists will kill other Baptists for political reasons and some sense of loyalty to one's country.  Surely, loyalty to and love for God and one's fellow brothers in the faith should come above all else.  The fact that it doesn't calls into question that love you mentioned.

I really feel this scripture applies in such cases.

"The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.  For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother". 1 John 3:10-12


Can these really call themselves genuine Christians. 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
You have refused to anwer your own question, yet you expect others to answer it. 

And once again I remind you you have asked questions BUT have not answered the same question yourself.

Hey Ben I have given up on this thread and suspect you will do the same soon.  Lared is not interested in debate or dialogue.  He is only interested in pushing his agenda but not willing to see if his nontrinitarian sects do what he calls others to do. 

 

[lared]

Thank-you Lightbearer,

The discussion pertaining to the identity of the true God has been raging for centuries. Whether he is a trinity or just a singular person.

These message boards go on and on and on and on as to his identity...... this means that, and that means this.

So I believe this is another justifiable approach.

The true God should be able to produce a people united...as foretold.

I started this thread with the valid question .....Where Is The Unity Under The Trinity God? Anyone who worships this god should quickly come to his defense and merely and simply point out the answer. It should not be that difficult.

Blackhawk........Yes, it is true.....this thread is not about debate or dialogue. It is obvious that that only skirts the issue.

If one wants to entertain other specific questions or topics, why not begin another thread? If one wants to discuss monotheistic gods and their people.....why not another thread?

Finally,.....finally we get an answer from Old Shepherd.

Old Shepherd, .....I applaud you in finally answering the question. You mentioned Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, and other nondenominational groups. Thank-you.

Now in line with the topic of this thread....how do you address Lightbearer's comments. Is it not obvious that even with the Baptists there is division. Not only in doctrine, but also in politics, and allegiance.

Did they not break apart into northern Baptists and southern Baptists during the American Civil War when they waged war with each other. Wounding and slaying one another in one of America's deadliest wars?
Yes, this is history, but have things changed? Are not Baptists still learning warfare in the nations' various military armies? Do they not still pledge allegiance to the various homelands in which they dwell and to their flags?

And do not Presbyterians teach predestination of an elect while Baptists do not?

I also take issue with this so-called unity. Certainly German Lutherans were kind to German Presbyterians during the 1930's and perhaps fellowshipped and assisted each other. No doubt during the 1940's as well.--------But what kind of genuine unity and love was this?

I question the power and wisdom of this trinity god. I have yet to see a people producing fruits of genuine love and unity. That is what I am attracted to.

Now, if one is honest-hearted and questions the power of a god to produce a united people.....why not pose that question on another thread?

Lared

PS--The identity of my religion or faith is not necessary in this thread. It is not about me or my God. I question the desire to know, as a means to skirt issues and questions.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I think all our PROBLEMS are consequential from our basic fallen nature. We are IMPERFECT---righteousness IS a goal, but so often we fall short.

I have long sought biblical support for the notion of a fallen nature. I have evidence that God created us and declared us, as part of the creation, good. I have found evidence that we are distant from God but I have found nothing which supports an evil fallen nature. The only thing wrong with men is that we are far off from God. Being drawn near would solve that problem.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by lared
The one true God Jehovah has a people that are united.

My question is directed to those that worship the trinity god. They should be proud of him or it and those that worship him or it.

Thus,.....who are these people? Why can't this Bible trinity god unite his people?

Shouldn't be that hard to explain without trying to turn tables.

I'm not sure that I should be "proud" of the triune God since that implies a paternalism which elevates the one who is proud, i.e., me above the object of my pride, God. Nevertheless I believe in Him and thank you for your questions about the deplorable disunity that exists in the world that claims the name of his Son.

The name Jehovah is an interesting word since it does not exist in Hebrew. The Jews, who revered the name of God, notated the name with the letters for the consonants of that name (as they did with all Hebrew words) BUT to prevent a reader from pronouncing it, later versions of the text added diacritical markings for vowels "e," "o"and "a."

These vowels are not the correct vowels of the Hebrew name of God but they did prevent Jewish readers from pronouncing the sacred name of God. The fact that some religious cults have seized upon this misspelled name as the only correct name for God is one of the more humorous stories of history.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by lared
I started this thread with the valid question .....Where Is The Unity Under The Trinity God? Anyone who worships this god should quickly come to his defense and merely and simply point out the answer. It should not be that difficult.

PS--The identity of my religion or faith is not necessary in this thread. It is not about me or my God. I question the desire to know, as a means to skirt issues and questions.

First, you must clarify "unity." I assume from your writings that you will define "unity" as Jesus intended.

P.S.--The identity of your religion and faith is obvious enough. No need to hide it.

 

[The Thadman]

A post I made (#188) concerning the Trinity in scripture:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=563059#post563059

Shlomo! (Peace!)


edited to correct link address...