Where is Jesus?

[ViaCrucis]

Yet In the Revelation, we see the Glorified Jesus, From Heaven, promising His Thief's coming would befall the real first-century peoples of Sardis:

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Was He merely issuing Empty Threats to them?

Here Jesus warns that He will "come upon" them, like a thief. Sure, the language uses the thief metaphor, but Jesus doesn't seem to be talking at all about His public parousia, but rather a kind of private visitation of judgment against those in Sardis.

If your intent is to entertain heresy, I have no intent on doing the same.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[parousia70]

Here Jesus warns that He will "come upon" them, like a thief. Sure, the language uses the thief metaphor, but Jesus doesn't seem to be talking at all about His public parousia, but rather a kind of private visitation of judgment against those in Sardis.

I partially Agree.
Revelation 2-3 explicitly documents the first-century return of Jesus Christ to the Asia Minor Churches. We may not deny what the Bible plainly teaches, and it appears you are at least open to the likelihood that Revelation 2-3 does indeed teach of a 1st-century "Coming of Christ in Judgment" to those people. That is good to hear. For sure Jesus returned to each one of them and executed his judgments and addressed various issues particular to those Churches.

The question then becomes, does scripture teach more than one coming of Christ "as a thief"?

I don't see scripture teaching anything of the sort.

What do you suppose those at Sardis would have understood it to mean when they read This:

Matthew 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

And then they read This:

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

How would those at Sardis have understood these two passages? As Parallel verses describing the same thing, or as two completely unrelated events as is your contention?

What I see is Scripture teaching is that Christ would come as a "Thief in the Night" in the 1st century -- Jesus gives this teaching in Matthew 24:43. That coming came upon the 1st century Church of Sardis in Revelation 3:1-3. It was also promised to come upon the enemies of the Thessalonians (but not overtake the Thessalonians themselves) in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9. These PARALLEL passages place this ONE event firmly in the 1st century.

If your intent is to entertain heresy, I have no intent on doing the same.

Is it Heresy to understand the 1st century Parousia of Christ happened, on time as prophesied and that Coming prefigures in a mysterious way the Final, Creedal Consummation?

I don't believe such an argument of "heresy" can be made.

For sure the Bible teaches Christ's Parousia, His coming as a thief, would befall 1st-century peoples, and we can be confident it did!

How that coming prefigures the final creedal consummation remains a Mystery, for the timing and details of that event have not been revealed to Men (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[parousia70]

In Revelations, John was told: the number of human in the Heaven is NOT enough.

What verse is that?

All your quotes WILL BE satisfied in a short future. Be patient.

When you say "short future" do you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they told their flocks it was coming, "shortly, soon, near, at hand, about to take place, in a very little while" or do you mean something different than they did?

I can never tell, because futurists are always claiming "shortly" means thousands of years away....

 

[DamianWarS]

Correct. Jesus and Paul are referencing Palestine and the Levant 2,000 years ago.

The gospel was preached in the world 2,000 years ago.

And so to my mind, the gospel is not weak; it is quite strong enough.

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago? Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

If you answer no to both of these then we fundamentally disagree on the scope and design of the Gospel.

 

[parousia70]

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago? Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

If you answer no to both of these then we fundamentally disagree on the scope and design of the Gospel.

Well, the Gospel has no expiration date.
It is EVERLASTING. (Revelation 14:6)
It is designed to FOREVER call sinners to Salvation.

That said, it also had a SPECIFIC scope/mission in the 1st century which scripture confirms was completed in the 1st century.
The successful completion of that mission in no way negates its everlasting design.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well, the Gospel has no expiration date.
It is EVERLASTING. (Revelation 14:6)
It is designed to FOREVER call sinners to Salvation.

That said, it also had a SPECIFIC scope/mission in the 1st century which scripture confirms was completed in the 1st century.
The successful completion of that mission in no way negates its everlasting design.

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago? Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

 

[parousia70]

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago? Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

How is that at all relevant to its specific 1st century Mission you seem to agree with when you said:

"Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world"

If you agree Matthew 24:14 CAN BE SAID to be addressing only the known world, then where or what is your objection exactly?

Do you believe the Gospel is truly EVERLASTING? Or do you believe one day in the future it will cease being preached to sinners on earth, calling them to salvation(which is it's ONLY function)?

 

[juvenissun]

How many Revelations are you talking about?

Sorry, the Revelation 6:11

 

[DamianWarS]

How is that at all relevant to its specific 1st century Mission you seem to agree with when you said:

"Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world"

If you agree Matthew 24:14 CAN BE SAID to be addressing only the known world, then where or what is your objection exactly?

Do you believe the Gospel is truly EVERLASTING? Or do you believe one day in the future it will cease being preached to sinners on earth, calling them to salvation?

I thought my questions were clear enough, although intended for the OP you are free to answer them. Do you wish me to ask them again?

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago? Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

 

[parousia70]

I thought my questions were clear enough, although intended for the OP you are free to answer them. Do you wish me to ask them again?

I understand the questions as stated.. I still have no idea how they are relevant to the topic. Thanks for affirming my freedom to address them.

Were there unreached ethnos 2000 years ago?

Yes.

Does the word transcend it's colloquial meaning?

No, not in the context both Jesus and Paul used it.

The etymology of a word cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the context it is being used within, when one is determining (or attempting to determine) the specific, or intended meaning of the word within that context.

In other words, Context trumps Etymology.

 

[juvenissun]

What verse is that?



When you say "short future" do you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they told their flocks it was coming, "shortly, soon, near, at hand, about to take place, in a very little while" or do you mean something different than they did?

I can never tell, because futurists are always claiming "shortly" means thousands of years away....

Revelation 6:11

Here the "short" does not indicate time by unit such as year. It means within "this generation" (Matt 24:34). In here, "this generation" does not mean 30 years or 100 years, but is indefinitely long before the Jesus comes back again. However, in prophecy (Daniel), this period of time equals no time. It means this period of time, no matter now long, is not counted. It's a long story. Suggest you read content about the "dispensation" period.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How is that at all relevant to its specific 1st century Mission you seem to agree with when you said:

"Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world"

If you agree Matthew 24:14 CAN BE SAID to be addressing only the known world, then where or what is your objection exactly?

Do you believe the Gospel is truly EVERLASTING? Or do you believe one day in the future it will cease being preached to sinners on earth, calling them to salvation(which is it's ONLY function)?

When harmonizing the 70ad Olivet Discourse with Revelation, I found it difficult how to render that word......it appears to be referring to the then known world, as viewed from 1st century Jerusalem Judea.
I have a thread on it if interested........

"OIKOUMENE"(#G3625) In Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Mistranslated?

The mistranslation of #g3625 and the possible impact on interpretations when it comes to Eschatology.

Here are 2 other greek words I feel have been horribly mistranslated in the NT:

GEHENNA/Hell
1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell
AGE/forever/world
165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--Compare 5550...............
166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

And the word that is the focus of this thread: "OIKOUMENE"<3625>

Definition from greek resources:

3625 oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world.........
STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω (namely, γῆ; cf. Winers Grammar, § 64, 5; Buttmann, § 123, 8));
1. the inhabited earth;
a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.

One interesting fact I found out is, that #3625 is used in only 4 verses of the Gospels:
1 in Matthew and 3 in Luke.

I will post 2 of the verses, both of which are used in the Olivet Disourse using the KJV and NASB, as they appear to be 2 popular Bible versions and also use different greek texts.

Used in only 1 verse of Matthew:

Matthew 24:14

New American Standard Bible
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world<(oikoumenē)<3625> as a testimony to all the nations,
and then the end will come.
King James Bible
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world<(oikoumenē)<3625> for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:26

New American Standard Bible
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world/<(oikoumenē)<3625>;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
King James Bible
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>:
for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

[parousia70]

Revelation 6:11

Here the "short" does not indicate time by unit such as year. It means within "this generation" (Matt 24:34). In here, "this generation" does not mean 30 years or 100 years, but is indefinitely long before the Jesus comes back again.

Demonstrably untrue.

"This Generation" in scripture ALWAYS refers to the then present, LITERAL generation to whom Jesus was speaking... it is not an open-ended, imaginary, metaphorical, elastic, meaningless term as you appear to assert.

 

[juvenissun]

Do you believe the Gospel is truly EVERLASTING? Or do you believe one day in the future it will cease being preached to sinners on earth, calling them to salvation(which is it's ONLY function)?

The Gospel is only available in the time period from Jesus Christ on the earth to the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation. In other word, it is the time when the Holy Spirit is on the earth.

 

[juvenissun]

Demonstrably untrue.

"This Generation" in scripture ALWAYS refers to the then present, LITERAL generation to whom Jesus was speaking... it is not an open-ended, imaginary, metaphorical, elastic, meaningless term as you appear to assert.

If so, the questions in the OP can not be answered. It is not good.
The interpretation is NOT imaginary, NOT metaphorical, NOT elastic, and NOT meaningless.

 

[parousia70]

The Gospel is only available in the time period from Jesus Christ on the earth to the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation. In other word, it is the time when the Holy Spirit is on the earth.

Ok, so you believe Revelation 14:6 is false.
Duly Noted.

 

[parousia70]

If so, the questions in the OP can not be answered. It is not good.

Sure they can. And I have. It is Good.

The interpretation is NOT imaginary, NOT metaphorical, NOT elastic, and NOT meaningless.

You have "this generation" as a meaningless, timeless, open ended, elastic metaphore.
You reject the literal definition spelled out in scripture.

Again, Duly noted.

 

[juvenissun]

Ok, so you believe Revelation 14:6 is false.
Duly Noted.

I would say that the "everlasting Gospel" means the Gospel is everlasting to the person who accept it. It does not mean the time period of Gospel is everlasting, which is obviously untrue.

 

[juvenissun]

You have "this generation" as a meaningless, timeless, open ended, elastic metaphore.
You reject the literal definition spelled out in scripture.

Sorry, feel it as you wish.

 

[parousia70]

I would say that the "everlasting Gospel" means the Gospel is everlasting to the person who accept it. It does not mean the time period of Gospel is everlasting, which is obviously untrue.

The SOLE PURPOSE of the Gospel is to be preached to sinners on earth to call them to salvation.
It has no other purpose.

To suggest that it's purpose comes to an end one day is to deny the DIRECT scriptural teaching that the Gospel is EVERLASTING.

Sorry Friend. You can't have it both ways.
You can't have an Everlasting Gospel that has an Expiration Date.